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In The Matter Of: 




UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC, et al v. 
SHAWN C REIMERDES, et al 




Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 




SO UTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, EC 
500 PEARL STREET 
NEW YORK, NY 10007 
(212) 805-0300 




Original File 07JVUNIF.TXT, 200 Pages 



Min-U-Script® File ID: 1268201106 



Word Index included with this Min-U-Script® 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 412 

[1] UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 

[2] 

[3] UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., 
etal, 

14] 

Plaintiffs, 

[5] 

v. 00 Civ. 277 (LAK) 

[6] 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al, 

[7] 

Defendants. 

[8] 
[9] 

July 19, 2000 
110] 9:00 a.m. 

[11] Before: 

[12] HON. LEWIS A. KAPLAN, 

[13] District Judge 

[14] APPEARANCES 
[15] PROSKAUER, ROSE, L.L.P. 

Attorneys for Plaintiffs 
[16] BY: LEON P. GOLD 

CHARLES S. SIMS 

[17] CARU\ MILLER 

SCOTT COOPER 

[18] 

FRANKFURT, GARBUS, KLEIN & SELZ 
[19] Attorneys for Defendants 

BY: MARTIN GARBUS 
[20] ERNEST HERNSTADT 
DAVID ATLAS 

[21] 
[22] 
[23] 
[24] 
[25] 



Page 413 

[1] THE COURT: Before we get started with the witness, 
[2] let me just make a suggestion to you. 
[3] We have been proceeding on the assumptions that 
[4] everybody knows and that the record reflects such fun 
damental 

[5] facts as what's a computer, what's an operating system, what's 
[6] the Internet or the worldwide web, and so on. 
[7] In the interest of having a complete record, it seems 
[8] to me we ought not to assume those things. So, I invite your 
[9] attention to what I think are entirely uncontroversial 
[io] findings on those points in U.S. v. Microsoft, basically 
[1 1] defining the terms which is reported at 84 Fed.Supp.2d page 9. 
[12] And the ones I thought particularly relevant were paragraphs 
[13] 1, 2, 1 1, 12, 13, 14, and 16, which simply lay out the 
[14] background. 

[15] I would invite you to look at them at some point and 
• [16] see whether you will stipulate to them. And if you can't 
I [17] stipulate to them, address the question of why I shouldn't 
I [1 8] take ju dicial-notlce-of Ae-iac^s in-those-^antgraphs^ 

[19] Obviously we are not trying the Microsoft case here. 

[20] Let's proceed. 

[21] MR. GARBUS: Your Honor, may we approach the bench? 
[22] THE COURT: Yes. 
[233 (At the sidebar) 

[24] MR. GARBUS: I have some suggested stipulations that 
[25] may save a great deal of time and we may be able to — (1) 

Page 414 

[1] that there's no direct proof that any single copy of a movie 
[2] has ever been sent out on the Internet, that is DeCSS and 
[3] deencrypted — 

[4] MR. GOLD: If I may? Your Honor, I would 
[5] respectfully request that whatever stipulations Mr. Garbus may 
[6] have in the case and whenever he has them, I would love to get 
[7] them in writing so I can look at them and it seems to me the 
[8] quickest way to do it, instead of grabbing a minute or two 
[9] before a particular witness is examined — 
[10] MR. GARBUS: I'm trying to do mis because of time. 
[1 1] MR. SIMS: Your Honor — 
[12] THE COURT: Don't everybody talk at once. 
[13] I know you are, Mr. Garbus. And I appreciate that 
[14] you are trying to save time. I don't want to take trial time 
[15] unnecessarily with tiiis. I can't anticipate the discussion 
[16] from yesterday's discussion and I think the solution on at 
[17] least the one you read now is readily obvious, in light of the 
[18] solution yesterday. 

[19] ! suspect that when Mr. Gold g^ ts a chance to think 
[20] about it, he will agree with the same caveats he agreed 
[21] yesterday, that is, he's going to ask me to infer and he is 
[22] going to want you to, at this point, I suppose that lots of 
[23] people are offering movies that purport to be decrypted and 
[24] that I should infer, even in the absence of specific knowledge 
[25] as to what utility was used to decrypt them, that at least 



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[1] some of them were decrypted with DeCSS, and you will have your 
{2] arguments on. 

13] Why don't you have that discussion between yourselves 
[4] first. 

[5] MR. SIMS: We provided you five pages of proposed 

[6] stipulations last week at the judge's request and we've never 

[7] gotten any response and I've written about it. 

[8] MR. GARBUS: I haven't seen them. 

[9] THE COURT: Work that out. 

[10] MR. GARBUS: The other thing I wanted to mention is 

[11] since your Court has been very sensitive about the whole issue 

[12] of press, 1 wanted to mention that over the of the two days, I 

[13] have not spoken to any representative of the press. I have no 

[14] objection to the fact that other people have spoken to members 

115] of press.They have every right to do so. 

[16] I just wanted to point that out. We have not in over 

[17] the last two days not spoken to a soul. 

[18] THE COURT: We are just not going to get into that, 

[19] Mr. Garbus. You have made your assertion. Ms. Gross and the 

[20] Electronic Frontier Foundation, which is I gather financing 

[21] this case, and she's sitting at counsel table with you, 

[22] weren't covered by your remarks I noticed. 

[23] MR. GARBUS: They were. 

[24] THE COURT: Nor were any of a number of other people. 
[25] So, let's — 



Page 416 

[1] MR. GARBUS: I was talking about myself. 

[2] THE COURT: Let's just avoid all these protestations. 

[3] MR GOLD: Your Honor, in the late afternoon 

[4] yesterday, you asked us several questions about turning over 

[5] of drafts of Mr. Schumann's declaration and we have run that 

[6] down at tliis point. Is it appropriate to do it now or would 

[7] you rather wait? 

[8] THE COURT: Did I ask you questions? I just asked 
[9] you to turn them over, if you had it. What's the problem? 
[10] MR GOLD: What happened is when we verified this with 
[1 1] the records, after the deposition, we got a letter from 
. [12] defendant's firm asking very specifically for documents. They 
[13] did not ask for the drafts of any declarations; however, they 
[14] did ask for some specific materials and what Mr. Schumann did 
[15] is turn over his whole file at that point. 
[16] The file contained drafts that he had in his 
[17] possession of this declaration. Although they had not been 
[18] asked for, we took Mr. Schumann's file and turned it all over, 
[19] including declarations, to the defendants. 
[20] I know your Honor doesn't want me to bring up other 
[21] issues that we have about documents with the defendants, so I 
[22] will not. So, there were drafts and they were turned over. 
[23] THE COURT: All right. Let's go. 



Page 417 

[1] called as a witness by the plaintiff 

[2] having been previously duly sworn, testified as follows: 

[3] MR. HERNSTADT: Your Honor, just to complete the 

[4] record on that, I believe to the extent they were turned over, 

[5] they were turned over within the last week after the second 

[6] day of Mr. Schumann's declaration. 

[7] THE COURT: Look, could we please get on with the 

[8] testimony. 

[9] MR. HERNSTADT: Thank you. 

[10] THE COURT: Ms. King, you are still under oath. 

[11] DIRECT EXAMINATION Continued 

[12] BY MR GOLD: 

[13] Q: Good morning, Ms. King. 

[14] A: Good morning. 

[15] Q: You had just finished yesterday testifying about the 

[16] nature of the importance the studios attributed to having an 

[17] encryption system before they came out with their DVDs and I'm 

[18] going to continue from there. 

[19] What has happened with DVD sales since the adoption 

[20] of CSS and the studio's decision to release their pictures in 

[21] DVD format? 

[22] A: WelLthesalesofDVDplayershavebeenquitesuccessh.il. 

[23] There are over, I believe it's about 5 million U.S. homes, the 

[24] projections show probably 10 million by the end of the year 

[25] 2000. The sales of DVD software have been quite robust both 



[24] (In open court) 

[25] MARSHA KING, resumed. 



Page 418 

[1] in the United States and where we are launched around the 
[2] world. 

[3] Q: Approximately how many DVD players have been sold? 
[4] A: I think it's — I think it's about 5 million. 
[5] Q: Is there current harm to the plaintiffs represented by the 
[6] dissemination in the DeCSS hack? 
[7] MR. GARBUS: I object to the form. 
[8] THE COURT: What's the objection to the form? 
[9] MR. GARBUS: No foundation for it. Could we hear the 
[10] question again? 

[1 1] THE COURT: Read the question please, Amy. 
[12] (Record read) 

[13] MR. GARBUS: I object to the question. 
[14] THE COURT: Overruled. 

[15] The witness is the head of business affairs for the 
[16] studio. 

[17] A: First of all, we lost what to us was our first line of 
[i8] defense in protecting our copyrights in the di-i d domain. 
[19] The CSS encryption system was to provide protection for our 
[20] works in DVD. As I said before, the reason that the studios, 
[21] including Warner Brothers, were willing to distribute their 
[22] product in the digital domain in this new format was because 
[231 they had rhi 



L^oiection. 



[24] So, the first tiling is we've lost our protection. 
[25] That in itself is of great harm to us. Secondly, the second 



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SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 419 

11] harm might be the loss of confidence in using. 
[2] MR. GARBUS: May I object, your Honor — 
[3] A: Excuse me. 

[4] THE COURT: You can cross-examine, Mr. Garbus. You 
15] can't object to the answer. 

[6] A: The second problem is certainly the loss of confidence 
[7] that the studios would have in continuing to distribute 
18] product in this format. There's a tremendous amount of 
[9] investment that's gone into the development of DVD, the 
[10] investments of the studios, including in mastering a very 
[11] expensive product, the investment of the consumer electronics 
112] industry, the investment of the computer industries and 
113] equally the investment of what will be we think 12 million 
[14] consumers by the end of the year 20000 and purchasing a 
[15] product that is widely accepted around the world. 
[16] On top of that, we believe that we are beginning to 
[17] lose legitimate sales of our product and wilJ continue to 
[18] increasingly lose legitimate sales of our product. 
[19] Q: Does Warner believe that the DeCSS — 
[20] THE COURT: Let's talk about what the witness 
[21] believes, at least. I don't think she can speak for untold 
122] thousands of individuals. 
[23] MR GOLD: Thank you, your Honor. 

[24] Q: Do you believe any other damage will flow to Warner from 
[25] the DeCSS hack unless dissemination of DeCSS is enjoined? 



Page 420 

[1] A: Well, if the dissemination of DeCSS is not enjoined and if 
[2] the legislation is not upheld, then we've lost our protection 
[3] for products in the digital domain, not only could it have a 
[4] tremendously adverse effect on the sale of DVD, but Warner 
[5] Brothers at least is now looking into digital distribution of 
[6] its movie in video-on-demand avenues. They can be private 
[7] video on demand through a pay-per-view network like direct TV 
[8] or it could be through the Internet. 
[9] But the only way I tliink that we would be willing to 
[10] go ahead is if we had some type of protection for our product. 
[11] Additionally, even if we had protection on video on demand, if 
[12] there still was a hack like this of DVD, it could cut the 
[13] window and cut off our future revenue from that new product 
[14] stream. So, our TV revenues as well as our video revenues 
[15] would be impacted greatly. 

[16] Q: Have you ever heard the term "film library"? 

[17] A: Yes. 

[18] Q: What is that? 

[T9] £ Our film library like the libraries of the other studios 
[20] had a great value to us because in the reselling of our older 
[21] catalog titles, what we call our "crown jewels" of the studio. 
[223 We make income just to bring in new movies because 
[23] there's a very small percentage of new movies that actually 
[24] turn a profit over the short term. So, the resale of our 
[25] library and the value of existing products like "Casablanca" 



Page 421 

[1] or "Gone With The Wind" are very valuable to the studios. 
[2] A product like DVD gives the studios a chance to 
[3] resell its library to a new — to a new consumer and since 
[4] video was the first consumer product in their hands provided 
[5] by the motion picture studios, we have seen a tremendous sale 
[6] of catalog product.The continued dissemination of our movies 
[7] not coming from the studios would impact those sales. 
[8] Q: Can you quantify the potential loss of revenue that Warner 
[9] would suffer unless the dissemination of the DeCSS hack is 
[10] enjoined? 

[1 1] THE COURT: Mr. Garbus? 

[12] MR. GARBUS: I object. 

[13] THE COURT: Pardon? 

[14] MR. GARBUS: I object to that.There's no 

[15] foundation. 

[16] THE COURT: Overruled. 

[17] A: I have not seen a quantification of projected harm. I do 

[18] know that our — when I speak for Warner Home Video in which I 

[19] work, that we have done our five-year projections and our 

[20] five-year strategic plan. And one of the great risks focuses 

[21] on the growth of DVD which provides, not just income to 

[22] balance out a mature business like video, but incremental 

[23] income to show growth for our company. 

[24] One of the tremendous risk factors that we list and 

[25] that we emphasize every time we talk about the business is to 

Page 422 

[1] the risk of digital piracy and digital copyright sharing. 

[2] Q: Does DeCSS create any problem with the public's image of 

[3] motion pictures and motion picture distribution? 

[4] MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of the question. 

[5] THE COURT: What's the problem with the form? 

[6] MR. GARBUS: As to what the public is thinking? As 

[7] to what the public's image is? 

[8] THE COURT: I'm going to take it for what it's worth 
[9] as a perception of the studio. I don't know that it's worth 

[10] much. 

[1 1] Go ahead. 

[12] A: Well, I also can't speak, you know, for the entire public, 
[13] but I can speak for how the studios look at what's happening 
[14] in the marketplace today. 

[15] One of the great problems that we believe at the 

[16] studio is happening in the music industry is the perception 

[17] that copyrighted music is free and whether that's grounded in 

[18] prior law or whether that's grounded in just common practice, 

[IP] we are not sure, but it's a perception that exists in the 

[20] marketplace that makes it very difficult for the music 

[21] industry to make its case. 

[22] In the movie industry, we are in a different — we 
[23] are in a different situation and we know that our movies are 
[24] protected by copyright in that there is no right to make a 
[25] copy of a movie. There just isn't. And we want to protect 



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[1] our movies now and into the future. 

J2] MR. GOLD: I have no further questions, your Honor. 

[3] THE COURT: Ms. King, I've got one. 

[4] Is there any way to put this genie back in the 

I5] bottle, I mean, the DeCSS genie by a Court order addressed to 

[6] this defendant? 

[7] THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not a tecluiical expert and I 
[8] know that that is very difficult, however, I believe that the 
(9] combination of the enforcement of the DMCA code, citizens 
[10] being law-abiding citizens and the measures that we have in 
[11] place in terms of our own antipiracy and anticopying efforts 
[12] sends a message that I think it's a combination of the 
[13] enforc em ent, further technological inno v ations that will put 



[14] on our product, the enforcement of the law and the public 

[15] perception — the public understanding that you cannot just 

[16] violate the copyright law and take product that has — is up 

[17] there because it's a violation of the law, it's being 

[18] trafficked on, because it's violated the law. 

[19] That's why I think — that's why I think this is 

[20] exceptionally important and I know my colleagues believe that 

[21] as well. 

[22] THE COURT: Given the apparent dissemination of the 
[23] DeCSS code, wouldn't your interests, if they are valid, be 
[24] served to whatever extent a Court is able to serve them by 
[25] declaratory judgment in determining whether or not what 



[3] 



Page 424 

[1] occurred here and what is threatened to continue occur with 
[2] DeCSS, assuming there's a continued threat, is illegal or not? 
Do you follow me? 

THE WITNESS: In other words, you're saying if it 
[5] just was declared illegal, as opposed to — 
[6] THE COURT: As opposed to picking out one defendant 
[7] to enjoin. It's as if what you were trying to do here was to 
[8] stop 37,000 kayakers coming down the Hudson River and you 're 
[9] asking for an injunction against one of them on the premise 
110] that coming down the Hudson River in a kayak is illegal. 
{1 1] Even if you get that injunction, there are going to 
[12] be 36,999 kayakers coming down the river. Isn't what you are 
[13] really after here a determination of whether it's illegal to 
114] kayak down the Hudson? 

[15] THE WITNESS: Yes, that is certainly what we are 
[16] after here. My response to that is that, at least as one of 
117] the studios involved in this lawsuit, we had to start 
[18] somewhere. 

THE COURT: Mr. Garbus? 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 
BY MR. GARBUS: 
[22] Q: Does anyone in the studio — and I'm just repeating the 
123] stipulations now we were going to offer tins is morning — 
[24] have any direct proof that any single copy of a movie that has 
[25] ever been sent out on the Internet was sent out after DeCSS 



[19] 
[20] 
[21] 



Page 425 

[1] encryption, yes or no, direct proof? 

[2] A: I can't answer that question for all the studios. 

[3] Q: For yourself? 

[4] A: Not that I know of. 

[5] Q: Now, you say you meet with other studios' representatives 

[6] and heads, is that right? 

[7] A: From time to time. 

[8] Q: Has anyone at any studio ever told you — have you ever 

[9] seen a document — let me rephrase that question. 

[10] Have you ever seen a document from any studio or the 

[11] MPAA or any third party showing any direct proof that any one 

[12] single copy of a movie has ever been sent out on the Internet 

riai thai was DeCSS encrypted^ 



[14] A: No. 

[15] Q: Have you ever seen any direct proof that anyone ever 

[16] downloaded source or object code from 2600.com? 

[17] A: Other than in this courtroom, I have not. 

[18] Q: Other than the plaintiff's witnesses, you mean? 

[19] A: Yes. 

[20] Q: Have you ever seen any direct proof that anyone ever made 
[21] a copy of a DVD as a result of having downloaded anything from 
[22] 2600.com? 

[23] A: I don't recall ever seeing that. 

[24] Q: And in your conversations with the studio, has anyone ever 
[25] told you that they ever saw any direct proof that anyone ever 



Page 426 

| [1] downloaded source or object code from 2600.com that was used 
[2] to make a copy of a movie? 

[3] A: That was not a topic of any conversation I had with the 

[4] studio people. 

[5] Q: Weren't you involved — 

[6] A: So, the answer is no. 

[7] Q: Weren't you involved in copy protection? Wasn't that your 
[8] issue? 

[9] A: Yes, I was involved in the development of copy protection 
[10] technology in the initial licensing. 

[11] Q: Did you ever ask anybody at any studio whether or not 
[12] there was one single document that indicated that anyone ever 
[13] downloaded source or object code from 2600.com? 
[14] A: No. 

[15] Q: Did you ever ask anyone at any studio whether there was 
[16] any proof that anyone ever made a copy of a film as a result 
[17] of having downloaded object or source code from 2600.com? 
[18] A: No. 

[19] Q: Do you know of any direct proof or did anyone at the 
[20] studio ever tell you or did you ever see a document that said 
[21] that anyone did not buy a DVD because they saw a DeCSS 
[22] deencrypted movie? 
[23] A: No. 

[24] Q: Do you have any direct proof or has anyone at the studio 
[25] ever told you that any DVD, any one DVD in die United States 



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[1] was ever not sold because someone saw a DeCSS encrypted movie 
12] on the Internet? 

13] MR GOLD: Your Honor, I would object to this whole 

[4] line as being irrelevant to the issues in this case. 

15] Moreover, if Mr. Garbus is going to continue with his 

16] questions about direct proof, maybe he ought to define what 

[7] that is. 

[8] THE COURT: The witness is a lawyer. 

[9] MR. GOLD: A long time ago. Sometimes — 
110] THE COURT: You want the standard charge on the 
[1 1] difference between direct and circumstantial proof, Counsel? 
{123 Are you having any problem with the concept of direct 
[13] proof, Ms. King? 
[14] THE WITNESS: No. 
[15] THE COURT: O.K. Overruled. 

[16] Q: Do you or anyone at the studio have any projection for the 
[17] year 2000 of the loss of any DVD sales as a result of films 
[18] deencrypted by DeCSS either sold on the street or transmitted 
[19] on the Internet? 

[20] A: I don't. I can't speak for anyone at the studio. 

[21] Q: Is there anyone at the studio who would have that 

[22] information, if such information exists? 

[23] A: I don't know of anyone that would have them. 

[24] Q: You mentioned on the direct examination a five-year plan? 

[25] A: Yes. 



Page 428 

[1] Q: Is there any word in that document that in any way relates 
[2] to any anticipated loss of sales as a result of an>lhing 
[3] having to do with DeCSS specifically? 

[4] A: It is my recollection that in that documentation, under 

[5] "risks," we list digital copyright protection as one of the 

[6] major risks that we take as we go into the digital media. It 

[7] is set up as a risk. It is not quantified. 

[8] Q: Please answer my question. 

[9] Is there anytliing in that document that in any way 

[10] indicates that DeCSS particularly, specifically, creates any 

[11] risk for the next five years? 

[12] A: No, not — 

[13] Q: Do you have a copy of that document? Pardon me. 
114] A: Not specifically, no, it does not. 

[15] Q: Do you have a copy of that document here with you today? 
[16] A: No, I do not. 

117] MR. GARBUS: Mr. Gold, may I see it? She testified 
[18] to it on direct. 

[19] MR. GOLD: Was this a document in our document 
[20] designation? 

[21] MR. GARBUS: Pardon me? 

[22] MR GOLD: Was this a document in our document 
[23] designation? 

[24] MR. GARBUS: TIus is a document that she testified 
[25] about on your question, a five-year plan, and I ask for that 



Page 429 

[1] document. 

[2] MR GOLD: Well — 

[3] THE COURT: Do you have it here, Mr. Gold? That's 
[4] the first question. 
[5] MR GOLD: No. 

[6] THE COURT: No.Ask the next question. 
[7] MR. GARBUS: I ask that it be produced. 
[8] THE COURT: We will consider that later. 
[9] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[10] Q : Now, you were in court when you saw Mr. Shamos testify, is 
[11] that right? 
[12] A: Yes. 

[13] Q: And have you been part of the defense team in this case? 
[14] A: No. 

[15] Q: Did you file an original affidavit in this case back in 

[16] January? 

[17] A: Yes, I did. 

[18] Q: And were you deposed in this case? 
[19] A: Yes, I was. 

[20] Q: Has anyone at Warner's ever asked anybody to replicate or 
[21] duplicate or to make the same kind of test that Mr. Shamos 
[22] made with respect to the use of DeCSS, then DiVX'ing a movie, 
[23] and then sending it out over the Internet? 
[24] A: To the best of my knowledge, and I don't know everyone at 
[25] Warner Brother; no. 



Page 430 

[1] Q: Can you tell me why if DeCSS is such a threat, that no one 
[2] prior to the time that Mr. Shamos was asked to do this test, 
[3] anyone at Warner's or anyone at die other major studios or 
[4] anyone at the MPAA never made such a test? 
[5] MR GOLD: Your Honor, that — 
[6] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[7] Q: Did you discuss Mr. Shamos' test with him at any time 
[8] prior to the time he made it? 
[9] A: No. 

[10] Q: Since you saw Mr. Shamos in court, have you requested 
[1 1] anyone at Warner Brothers to try and replicate the test? 
[12] A: Since I saw him the day before yesterday? 
[13] Q: Yes. 
[14] A: No. 

[15] Q: To your knowledge, since Mr. Shamos performed the test 
[16] about a month ago, has anyone ever asked anyone at Warner's to 
[17] replicate the test? 
[18] A: Not that I know of. 

[19] Q: To your knowledge, has anyone at any of the other major 
[20] studios for the last eight months since DeCSS was cracked made 
[21] any attempt to replicate the test that Mr. Shamos made? 
[22] A: I have no information about the other studios in this 
[23] area. 

[24] Q: Do you have any direct proof of anyone who did not go to 
[25] see a movie or watch an HBO film because they had previously 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





Dona /1<H 

rag© 4o i 




Page 433 


{1] 


accii a vjccjici yp icu copy ui <ii7v u t uccucry picu uirougJi l/cv>jj: 


[1] 


informed by the MPAA of the cracking of DeCSS spent an 


12] 


r\m l J luvc iivJ UilCLl L/lovJl. 


[2] 


incredible amount of time talking together about what action 


ni 
i j j 


O* Do vou know what the bndeet is of the MPAA to investigate 


[3] 


they should take. We took it as a unified group through the 


[4] 


pii *ic y I 


[4] 


MPAA. 


I^] 


A* I ron't rpm/Tnhpr f*\ff fli^* t"/"\r"\ /~\f m\7 It /^o / 1 1~miI" 1 L r n/~*\>17' I'vp 
M. 1 CtlJl I lClIiClllUCl Ull LJIC lUp \Jl Illy IlCtiCl, Dill 1 iyxIL/W 1 VC 


[5] 


That was a conscious decision, and we left together 


16] 


Deen 101a in me pabi. 


[6] 


immediately after we heard about it.This wasn't just 


R] 


Q: Do you know what the budget of Warner Brothers is to 


[7] 


something we put on the shelf. There were immediate meetings 


[8] 


investigate piracy? 


[8] 


and there were many of them. 


[9] 


A: We don't have a budget to investigate piracy. We 


[9] 


Q: Let me ask you this:To your knowledge, did anyone ever 


[10] 


participate through the MPAA and provide them with 


[10] 


attempt to contact anyone who allegedly on the Internet is 


[11] 


liiioriiiaiiuii. vvc Jitivc <ui uiiciicciu*u propo ly group li i<ti 


[11] 


trying to sell or distribute or share a film that allegedly 


112] 


helps facilitate the work with the MPAA. 


[12] 


was deencrypted through DeCSS? 


[13] 


Q: And can you tell me if the MPA has offices in New York, in 


[13] 


That you can answer that, I think, yes or no. 


[14] 


California, and in Washington, is that right? 


[14] 


A: No, I — no, I can't. 


[15] 


A; I know there are offices in Washington and Los Angeles; 


[15] 


Q: Let me rephrase it. 


[16] 


yes. 


[16] 


Do you know the name — 


[17] 


Q: And they also have offices throughout the world? 


[17] 


MR. GARBUS: Judge, I think this is unnecessary. 


[18] 


A: 1 know they have offices, not in every country in the 


[18] 


THE COURT: I do, too. 


[19] 


world, but I know T they have offices in Europe and in other 


[19] 


Q: Do you know the name of any one person who was sharing 


120] 


place. 


[20] 


films on the Internet who was sharing a film that has been 


[21] 


Q: In Asia? 


[21] 


deencrypted through DeCSS? 


[22] 


A: They have an office in Singapore. 


T221 


A: No, I don't. 


[23] 


Q: And do you know at these offices they have investigators? 




Q" Have von ever seen a document from the MPAA vonr studio 


[24] 


A: Yes, they do. 




or finv olher stiiHJr> thot inHi^itf^c fHot inv 'iftf tnnt rrvirlf 
yjl <illY vjlxici jLlltlHJ U1<1L JLIlUlCiilCo Uldl ttllV «llCUiIJl W«to 1 1 J<!(JC 


[25] 


THE COURT: Mr. Garbus, tins is not a helpful line. 




t f\ l^'irn I \~\ trim/ 1 *; r^/^fvt^l/ 3 y\ ; It r\ ill/^o^/ llx/ /^liim An t li 




Page 432 




Page 434 


[1] 


MR. GARBUb: 1 trunk we could deal with it all on a 


[1] 


Internet that they have used DeCSS to deencrypt movies? 


[2] 


stipulation. That's the stipulation I was offering before. 


[2] 


MR GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the form of the 


[3] 


THE COURT: You offered five propositions for before. 


[3] 


question. 


[4] 


I think that you are now on about the 40th of the 5. 


[4] 


THE COURT: To the form, Mr. Gold? What's wrong with 


[5] 


MR. GARBUS: No, no, I m prepared to go through 


[5] 


the form? 


[6] 


the — 


[6] 


MR GOLD: I thought it was compound and I didn't 


[7] 


THE COURT: Mr. Garbus, it is perfectly obvious that 


m 


quite understand it myself. 


[8] 


the studios have antipiracy efforts. They have antipiracy 


[8] 


THE COURT: Rephrase it, Mr. Garbus. 


19] 


resources, just about every trademark holder in America does, 


[9] 


MR. GARBUS: Can I hear the question again? 


[10] 


every copyright holder, everybody knows that. 


[10] 


THE COURT: Go ahead. 


[11] 


Q: Were you here when you saw Mr. Schumann talk about the 


[11] 


(Record read) 


[12] 


logs that had been developed? 


[12] 


MR. GARBUS: I can break it is down into six 


113] 


A: Yes, I was in the courtroom. 


[13] 


questions, if you want. 


[14] 


Q: And do you know what the LiViD logs are? 


[14] 


Q: Have you ever seen any document — 


115] 


A: No. 


[15] 


THE COURT: I do you think the sarcasm is helpful, or 


[16] 


Q: Do you know what the logs were that he was referring to? 


[16] is that designed to provoke a reaction? 


[17] 


A: From what I gathered in the courtroom, they were logs 


[17] 


MR. GARBUS: No, no, no, no, just trying to save 


[18] 


relating to Linux development. 


[18] 


time. 


[19] 


Q: The people have been involved in the cracking of the 


[19] 


THE COURT: Go ahead. 


[20] DeCSS, among other things? 


[20] 


Q: Have you ever seen a document from the MPAA that gives you 


[21] 


A: No. 


[21] the name of any person on the Internet who allegedly is 


122] 


Q: To your knowledge, has anyone at the MPAA or any of the 


[22] seeking to share a deencrypted movie? 


123] major studios made any attempt at aU at any time to contact 


[23] 


A: No. 


[24] any of the people who were involved in the DeCSS crack? 


[24] 


Q: Have you ever seen any document which shows any attempt 


[25] 


A: To the best of my knowledge, the studios, once they were 


[25] made by the MPAA to learn the name of any person who allegedly 



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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 435 

[1] shares a movie allegedly deencrypted through DeCSS? 
[2] A: No. 

[3] Q: Have you ever seen a document from any studio, including 

[4] yours, indicating any attempt to learn the name or the 

[5] identification of any person who was allegedly sharing on the 

[6] Internet DeCSS deencrypted movies? 

[7] A: When you say the identification, I do know that the MPAA 

[8] looked for sites where they w T ere posting the DeCSS code. So, 

[9] I did see documents that referred to that, but not names. 

[10] Q: Now, with respect to those sites, do you know if anyone at 

11 1J the MPA or the studios or Warner Brothers ever made an attempt 

[12] to contact any of those sites? 

[13] A: Yes. 

[14] Q: And what attempt was made to contact those sites other 

[15] than 2600.com? 

[16] A: I know they sent out cease and desist letters and I don't 

[17] know to the extent they sent out letters. They had some take 

[18] downs and that's about all I know. 1 wasn't intimately 

[19] involved, but I know they did that. 

[20] Q: Other than cease and desist letters, did they make any 

[21] contact with by IPS server to determine the name of any 

[22] individual who allegedly used DeCSS to deencrypt a movie? 
[23] A: Oh, I don't know. 

[24] Q: Do you know that IPS servers will give you that 

[25] information, if requested? 



Page 436 

[1] A: I'm not familiar with that. 

[2] Q: Do you know that the technology now permits — excuse 
[3] me — do you know that IPS servers have logs about who visits 
[4] their sites? 

[5] MR GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the question. 
[6] Could Mr. Garbus describe what an "IPS" is? 
[7] MR. GARBUS: Internet Service Provider. I'm sorry. 
[8] I said "IPS." 

[9] THE COURT: Look, Mr. Garbus, I had this point about 
[10] four months ago and whatever merit it has, it has. It's not 
111] getting any better or worse. If you want to pursue it, I'm 
[12] going to give you five more minutes. 
[13] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[14] Q: Now, in your direct examination, you talked about the 
[15] licensing structure. Do you recall that? 
[16] A: Yes. 

[17] Q: See if you can help me and let me just state it and you 
[18] tell me if it's accurate, if that's an appropriate way to do. 
[19] The DVD CCA has licenses with the movie studios 
[20] concerning CSS? 
[21] A: Not necessarily. 

[22] Q: Then why don't you describe the licensing system. 
[23] A: Weil, you need to have a license with DVD CCA to put the 
[24] encryption on your disks, but that license could either be 
[25] taken out by the motion picture studio or it could be taken 



Page 437 

[1] out by their replicator who makes the disks. 

[2] Q: O.K. We are getting at it the same way, and it also is 

[3] taken out by the hardware manufacturer? 

[4] A: Yes, it is. 

[5] Q: So that the license from DVD CCA goes to the movie studio, 
[6] it goes to the replicator, and it goes to the hardware 
[7] manufacturer, is that right? 

[8] A: Yes, and if there's going to be a software implementation, 

[9] I would assume it goes to that party as well. 
[10] Q: So that the only people who allegedly can play DVDs or use 
[11] CSS are those people who have the licenses from DVD CCA, is 
[12] that right? 
[13] A: That's correct. 

[14] Q: Now, if you buy — do you have any information — does 
[15] Warner Brothers have any information on the number of sales of 
[16] DVDs to Linux users? 

[17] A: No. We don't follow that information. 
[18] Q: Do you know whether, in fact, the number of sales of DVDs 
[19] have increased because they are now available for Linux users 
[20] when they were not available before the DeCSS crack? 
[21] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the question 
| [22] because it assumes facts that aren't in evidence. 
[23] THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 
[24] Q: Are there any licensed Linux users? 
[25] A: I have been told that there are at least two licensed 



Page 438 

[i] Linux implementations. 

[2] Q: Do you know if there are any people using or watching DVDs 
[3] on Ltnuxes that do not have licenses? 
[4] A: I do not know that. 

[5] Q: Has there been any investigation — I don't know if this 
[6] is the same round or a different round — 
[7] Has there been any investigation made by the MPA, 
[8] your studio, any of the nine major studios over whether or not 
[9] the extent to which Linux users who do not have licenses are 
[10] using DVDs? 

[1 1] A: Linux users don't have to have licenses. Linux users just 
[12] have to use an authorized implementation. So, I don't have 
[13] that information. 

[14] Q: Let me ask the question another way. Linux users, of 
[1 5] course, can have a Windows system, so they can have a Windows 
[16] system so they can watch a licensed DVD, isn't that correct? 
[17] A: That is correct. 

[18] Q: And if a Linux user does not have a Windows system, 
[19- then — withdrawn. 

[20] Do you know how many sales of DVDs have been made to 
[21] Linux users who do not have Windows operating systems? 
[22] A: We do not track the different types of computer operating 
[23] systems that use our product. 

[24] Q : To make a DVD player, how many different licenses do you 
[25] need? 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



Min-U-Script® 



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Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C REIMERDES, et al 



Page 439 

[1] A: I don't know. 

[2\ Q: Is it more than five licenses? 

[3] A: I don't know. I thought it was just one, but I'm not 

[4] familiar enough with how they're licensing now. 

[5] Q: Do you know what the cost of those licenses are? 

[6] A: The cost of the license, which is royalty free, is 

[7] $10,000, from my recollection. 

[8] Q: That's for the first year? 

[9] A: Yes. I don't know I remember $10,000. 
[10] Q: You were talking about the increased sales of DVDs, is 
[11] that right, and how it's mushroomed in the market? 
112] A: Yes. 

113] Q: And given someone who's in this area, one would expect 
[14] that the mushrooming would continue? It's a liiglily-profi table 
[15] business, is that right? 
[16] A: Yes. 

[17] Q: And it's replacing videos? 

[18] A: Yeah. I mean, it's a very complex — excuse the word 
[19] "matrix" to figure out how the business is growing. I mean, 
[20] we have VHS. We have VCD in Asia. We have DVD. So, we are 
[21] always analyzing what the growth is. Is DVD taking anything 
[22] away from our current business? Is it incremental? It's part 
[23] of our business plan. 

[24] Q: And are there any projections within Warner Brothers in 
[25] your business plan indicating the decrease in videos as a 

Page 440 

[1] result of the DVD sales? 

[2] THE COURT: Asked and answered. 

[3] Q: What are those projections? 

[4] THE COURT: She said there were none. 

[5] Q: Does your five-year plan for Warner Brothers have no 

[6] projections with respect to the loss of video sales as a 

[7] result of the increase in the DVD market? 

[8] A: Let me see if I understand. 

[9] THE COURT: I'm sorry. The question you asked a 
[10] minute ago, I misheard. You can go back to that, if you want, 
[1 1] video versus DVD, Mr. Garbus. 

[12] A: Yes. Our projections show the, as I said before, our 
[13] sales of DVD are incremental to our video sales currently. 
114] But in our projections for the future, it shows that video 
[15] would decline as DVD increases. 
[16] Q: Isn't it fair to say that the expectation is within a 
[17] relatively short period of time, if the audio and video market 
[18] would become very s mall as the DVD market becomes very large? 
[19] A: No, that's not accurate. 

[20] Q: Isn't it fair to say that as time goes on, a movie will 
[21] not be released on both audio and video? 
[22] A: We have no projections that show that; none. 
123] Q: Now, do you have any projection — 
[24] THE COURT: Just a second. I mean, obviously people 
125] are not paying any attention to the words that are being used. 



Page 441 

[1] Are movies being released on "audio and video"? 
[2] THE WITNESS: No. 

[3] THE COURT: O.K. Mr. Garbus, you meant to say, "DVD 
[4] and video." 

[5] That's what you expected, Ms. King, so you answered 
[6] the question that he didn't ask. 
[7] Let's pay a little attention, folks. 
[8] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[9] Q: With respect to DVD and video? 
[10] A: Yes. 

[11] Q: Are there projections? 
[12] A: Certainly. 

[13] Q: And these projections show that the DVD market is 
[14] increasing and as that increases, the sale of the video market 
| [15] will decrease, is that right? 
[16] A: Yes, to a certain extent; yes. 

[17] Q: And are there projections of when movies will be released 
[18] on DVD, but will no longer be released on videos? 
[19] A: No. 

[20] Q: Have you seen any projections made by anyone other than 
[21] Warner's about when video becomes fundamentally far less 
[22] significant and has fewer films released on it? 
[23] A: I've seen no projections that show that we are not going 
[24] to release our movies in the video cassette format which is in 
[25] 99 percent of American television homes. 

Page 442 

[1] Q: And in what percentage of American television homes right 
[2] now are DVDs? 

[3] A: This is an estimate. We are looking at I think 10 percent 

[4] by the end of the year in the United States. 

[5] Q: And by the end of next year? 

[6] A: I don't remember. 

[7] Q: And by the end of the third year? 

[8] A: I don't remember. 

[9] Q: Now, do you recall that at the deposition we had been 
[10] talking about the release of DVD audio? Do you remember that? 
[11] A: Yes. 

[12] Q: And you know that DVD audio is in the stores today? 

[13] A: I don't believe DVD audio in the sense that I thinkof DVD 

[14] audio is in the stores today. 

[15] Q: Well, you say in the sense that you think DVD audio, is 

[16] there something out there called DVD audio? 

[17] A: There's a bit of confusion about what DVD audio is. 

[18] Q: Let mc ask you a question: Is there * -omething out in the 

[19] stores now that you called first DVD audio players by 

[20] Panasonic and by Phillips? 

[21] A: There may be. I don't know. 

[22] Q: And DVD audio players are supposed to play DVD audio, is 
[23] that right? 
[24] A: Yes. 

[25] Q: And is it your testimony that there are DVD audio players 



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Min-U-Script<§> SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, RC 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



rage 44o 




Page 445 


[1] out for sale today, but that there is no product for the DVD 


[1] 


MR. GARBUS: May I mark this as an exhibit? It 


12] audio players? 


[2] 


hasn't been marked as an exhibit before. I can describe it or 


13] THE COURT: The witness just said she didn't know if 


[3] 


not.These are things that I purchased last night at Tower. 


[4] there were DVD audio players in the store today. So, your 


[4] 


THE COURT: Mr. Gold? 


[5j Question r>i*irib un on an crrv->iicoui> premise mat iiwjuc juu 


[5] 


MR. GOLD: We object, your Honor. 


[6] understand the facts right and the witness is not informed. 


[6] 


THE COURT: Where are you going with this, Mr. 


[7] But let's at least listen to the answers. 


[7] 


Garbus? 


[8] (Continued on next page) 


[8] 


MR. GARBUS: There is testimony in the record and 


[9] 


[9] 


there are affidavits in the record that DVD audio was not 


[10] 


[10] 


released because DeCSS somehow affected it and that DVD audio 


[11] 


[11] 


was going to be delayed for another year, and in fact they are 


[12] 


[12] 


out for sale now. 


[13] 


[13] 


THE COURT: Mr. Gold? 


[14] 


[14] 


MR. GOLD: It may well be, your Honor, that the DVD 


115] 


[15] 


audio market, that the product that we are going to get into 


[16] 


[16] 


now was not on the market but this other DVD product that 


[17] 


[17] 


Ms. King described is, from her prior answers. 


[18] 


[18] 


THE COURT: Well, I mean that's kind of an 


[19] 


[19] 


observation about what might be going on, Mr. Gold, but is 


[20] 


[20] 


there an objection, and, if so, what is it? 


[21] 


[21] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, we got a list of documents and 


[22] 


[22] 


I thought the way the games were played — if they want to go 


[23] 




onf nnrl hnv <;nmp vif lf*o*s thf*v rriiilfl tvivp oivpn fhpm to 


[24] 


|^4J 


iYJ.1. riClIloUH.ll lit jl ILlgJll WjlCIl 11C Wito 111 vJUl al 1U lit 


[25] 




could hnvp pivpn tlipm to 11s or wp pould hnvp eottpn some 


Page 444 




Page 446 


[1] BY MR. GARBUS: 


[1] 


notice. 


[2] Q: So when you say there is some tiling out there, is there 


[2] 


Tlie rules provide for appropriate notice, and all of 


[3] something out there called DVD audio which is used with the 


[3] 


your Honor's orders provided for appropriate notice. 


[4] DVD audio players? 


[4] 


THE COURT: I am going to sustain the objection. 


[5] A: I don't know. I have been told that there is some music 


[5] 


MR. GOLD: Also, I don't think there is a foundation 


[6] in the marketplace that is in what is the video audio 


[6] 


on that to that question. 


[7] component of DVD. 


[7] 


THE COURT: Well, all we have had is a proposal to 


[8] In other words, DVD video plays 5.1 surround audio 


[8] 


mark the disks. You don't need a foundation to mark a disk, 


[9] which is even different from a normal CD. You can put out 


[9] 


but I don't see the relevance of this, Mr. Garbus. 


110] music in 5.1 surround which is the video standard for sound. 


[10] 


MR. GARBUS: Let me see if I can explore a little 


[11] I'm trying to make this clear. But that isn't DVD audio. DVD 


[11] 


further. 


[12] audio is another standard, and I don't believe that any music 


[12] 


Q: Do you know what water marking is? 


[13] is in the marketplace that meets that standard yet. Although 


[13] 


A: Yes, I do. 


[14] I could be wrong. That's just what I have been told. 


[14] 


Q: And was that one of the potential encryption systems that 


[15] THE COURT: That meets which standard? 


[15] 


were considered for DVDs? 


[16] THE WITNESS: That meets the new DVD audio standard. 


[16] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, is this not way beyond the 


[17] The sound on the DVD video has a certain specification. DVD 


[17] 


subject of direct testimony? Is this not irrelevant? I 


[18] audio goes beyond that specification, so it's an even added 


[18] 


object on those grounds. 


[19] feature. 


[19] 


MR. GARBUS: I will make an offer of proof, basically 


[20] THE COURT: When you are talking about DVD audio, you 


[20] 


that the movie studios knew back in — 


[21] are not talking about 5.1 surround, you are talking about a 


[21] 


THE COURT: Before you make any offer of proof, maybe 


[22] different standard, is that correct? 


[22] 


you could respond to the objection. 


[23] THE WITNESS: That's correct, that's what I would be 


[23] 


MR. GARBUS: I think it's relevant because I think it 


[24] talking about, yes. 


[24] 


shows — and I am prepared to do this at the sidebar, or if 


[25] THE COURT: Let's go. 


[25] 


you want, I will do it from here. 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



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Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 447 

[1] THE COURT: Would you go ahead, please, Mr. Garbus. 

12] MR. GARBUS: That at the time that the encryption 

[3] system was placed on the DVDs, they knew that the encryption 

[4] system would be broken in a very, very short period of time, 

15] and they got into the study of water marking, and different 

[6] groups then competed for the kind of encryption system that 

17] was available. 

[8] I think the proof will show, and it relates to the 
[9] clause you read yesterday of the law, that they knew that it 
[10] was not an effective device, and that since they have known 
[11] about the cracking they have developed in fact other 
{12] encryption codes that are superior to CSS which they can place 
[13] immediately on DVDs. It may cause some difficulty in how you 
[14] put it into the machine, but in fact a security system is now 
[15] available and can be used now to stop any potential loss of 
[16] future sales. 

[17] MR. GOLD: Your Honor — 

[18] MR. GARBUS: And you then get into a very important 
[19] economic issue, namely because you are concerned about and you 
[20] indicated I tliink that the concern is not today's damage or 
[21] may be today's damage to circumstantial proof, but certainly 
[22] damage tomorrow. 

[23] And what I would like to show, if we had an 

[24] opportunity to do it, is that the movie studios know about it, 

[25] knew about it two years ago, and have the total ability to 



Page 448 

[1] stop that damage, unlike the audio business. 
[2] THE COURT: Whatever the movie studios may have known 
[3] about two years ago is first of all not within the scope of 
[4] the direct and second of all not relevant. 
15] It is not relevant because although you seem to have 
[6] the view, and you are entitled to advocate it, that when the 
[7] statute speaks of effective control of access to copyrighted 
[8j works it should be construed to mean good or hard to crack 
[9] control, that is not the way the term is defined in the 
[10] statute. 

[1 1] Indeed, if it were so defined in the statute, it 

[12] would be meaningless, the entire statute, because the 

[13] definition of something that effectively would control access 

[14] would mean something uncrackable if it exists, and the only 

[15] occasion for envoking the statute is where something has been 

[16] cracked. So, by definition any time something had been 

[17] cracked, the control wouldn't have been effective. 

118] Now, I just don't read the statute that way, and you 

[19] are welcome to take that up on appeal should the occasion 

[20] arise, if indeed the plaintiffs win this lawsuit. 

[21] Now, that having been said, that takes care of the 

[22] past. As to threatened harm, I think that the witness has 

[23] raised the question of threatened future harm on direct, and I 

[24] think certainly in terms of a claim for an injunction you are 

[25] entitled to some latitude to explore her claim on that. 



Page 449 

[1] That's the ruling. 

[2] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[3] Q: Isn't it a fact that since CSS was cracked, the studios 

[4] have been developing other encryption systems? 

[5] A: The studio? The studio — I'm not sure I know what you 

[6] mean by other encryption systems. 

[7] Q: You know what water marking is? 

[8] A: Yes, but water marking is not the same as an encryption 

[9] system, so that's why I say that. They have been working on 

[10] water marking, they have been working on a system for digital 

[11] transmission for a long time in both of those systems. Since 

[12] CSS was cracked, you know, they have looked, they certainly 

[13] have asked Matsushita Toshiba what they can do about it ? if 

[14] anything, and I have not heard that we have an instant or an 

[15] immediate fix. 

[16] Q: Have you heard of CSS 2? 

[17] A: Yes. 

[18] Q: What is CSS 2? 

[19] A: CSS 2 is a similar encryption system to CSS that was meant 

[20] to protect DVD audio. 

[21] Q: And do you know what CPPM is? 

[22] A: Yes, I believe that CPPM, to the best of my knowledge, is 

[23] the encryption system that audio adopted after they 

[24] disregarded CSS 2 upon being cracked in October. 

[25] Q: And when you say CPPM was adopted, that was after they 



Page 450 

[1] learned that CSS 2 would not protect audio, is that right? 
[2] A: Let me rephrase what you said. CSS 2 was a system similar 
[3] to CSS. When we found out about DeCSS, the music industry 
[4] decided they did not want to use CSS 2 because it was 
[5] vulnerable. Therefore, they looked for another type of system 
[6] to protect DVD audio, and I believe the one that they picked 
[7] was CPPM, winch is different than CSS 2. 
[8] Q: You have now talked about the way that the audio 
[9] industry — pardon me — the audio industry has changed 
[10] encryption systems or security systems. Tell me what attempt 
[11] the movie industry has made since October to develop security 
[12] systems or encryption systems. And I gather the word 
[13] encryption system is not appropriate for water marking but the 
[14] word security system is. Is that correct? 
[15] A: Yes. 

[16] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the form of that. 
[17] THE COURT: Overruled. I think it's clear. Go 
[18] ahead. 

[19] A: The studios have spent a tremendous amount of time, I know 

[20] because I have been tangentially involved, in coming up with a 

[21] system that is now called 5C, which is for digital 

[22] transmission. It works on IEEE 1394 digital connections, and 

[23] it protects the transmission from one digital device to 

[24] another. That's extremely important because in the CSS 

[25] license we demanded that all digital ports be turned off so 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 451 

[1] that product could not be transmitted. We are looking for a 
[2] strong protocol now for that, and it has taken up a tremendous 
[3] amount of time and resources at every single studio in that 
[4] discussion. 

[5] Simultaneously with that, the studios have been 
[6] working on a very difficult situation involving the choice of 
[7] water marking. And water marking does not provide an 
[8] encryption system. What it does is if encryption is broken or 
[9] if for some reason circumvented, if you have a water mark then 
[10] the copy would not play in an authorized player. So it's 
[1 11 another system of security as well. 
112] In addition to that, we would have loved to have 
[13] chosen an immediate substitute system for DVD. However, there 
[14] are going to be, you know, I'm making a guess here, 12 million 
[15] DVDs in the market by December. If you put another encryption 
[16] system on and you started encrypting your movies, then all of 
[17] those players would be obsoleted and it's very difficult to 
[18] trade in the installed base of CE players and those are just 
[19] stand alone players. There is probably 20 million or more DVD 
[20] ROM drives that would also be obsoleted if we were to put a 
[21] noncompatible encryption system on. So the first tiling we did 
[22] was go to Matsushita Toshiba and say is there any way we can 
[23] get a fix on this that would help us going into the future. 
[24] The studios certainly have not sat on their thumbs but have 
[25] put in a tremendous amount of time and resources to see what 

Page 452 

[1] they could do to fix the situation. 

[2] Q: Can you tell us, do you have any document with you here 

[3] today indicating when the studios project — the judge asked 

[4] before the question putting the genie out of the bottle. 

[5] DeCSS has been posted regularly since October, at least since 

[6] October of 1999, is that right, to your knowledge? 

[7] A: I imagine. 

[8] Q: It has been posted regularly in November, December, 

[9] January, February, March, April, May, June. 
[10] THE COURT: We all know what the intervening months 
[11] are, Mr. Garbus. Another question, please. 

[12] Q: And is it fair to sa y that anyone who wants DeCSS or any — 
[13] number of people in the United States who wanted DeCSS in the 
[14] last months already has had an opportunity to see it? 
[15] MR. GOLD: I object on the grounds that that calls 
[16] for speculation. 

[17] THE COURT: Look, I guess it does, but the 
[18] fundamental point is obvious. 
[19] A: Okay, it's available. 

[20] THE COURT: That's all right. I am sustaining the 
[21] objection. There is no need to take time on it. Somebody who 
[22] wants it and knows anything about the Internet knows how to 
[23] get it. It's that obvious. 

[24] Q: And they have known how to get it since at least October. 
[25] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, objection. 



Page 453 

[1] THE COURT: Yes. Well, no, no. I will allow that, 

[2] but the witness needs to answer from her personal knowledge. 

[3] Q: From your personal knowledge, based on your involvement in 

[4] the industry, since October, anyone in the United States with 

[5] a computer can get a copy of DeCSS, is that true? 

[6] THE COURT: I suppose they need an Internet 

[7] connection, don't they? 

[8] A: I was going to say, if they are knowledgeable about where 

[9] to go and have the right connections. 
[10] Q: You say "if they are knowledgeable." If you go to 
[11] Disney's search engine and you punch in DeCSS, does it tell 
[12] you where to go? 

[13] A: You have to be knowledgeable in knowing what DeCSS is. I 
[14] mean not everyone knows that. 

[15] Q: I see. Can you go to let's say Infoseek and punch in CSS 
[16] and then gets references to DeCSS? 
[17] A: I don't know. 

[18] Q: Can you go to Infoseek or to any search engine and punch 
[19] in DVD and then get CSS or DeCSS? 
[20] A: I don't know. 

[21] Q: Do you know enough about the Internet to know that the 

[22] search engines, there are variable ways of getting to DeCSS 

[23] without punching in DeCSS? Is that right? 

[24] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the question. 

[25] THE COURT: Sustained. 

Page 454 

I [1] Q: Do you go on the Internet? 
j [2] A: Rarely. 

! [3] Q: Have you ever used any of the search engines to see where 
[4] DeCSS is? 
[5] A: No. 

[6] Q: Have you ever gone to 2600.com? 
[7] A: No. 

[8] Q: Now, Warner permits buyers of its DVDs to play them in a 
[9] DVD player no matter where they purchase the DVD player, is 

[10] that correct? 

[11] A: Yes. 

1T2] Ch~Can Wamerxlecide on its own to aiiow a company to play 
[13] its DVDs without that company having a license from the 
[14] DVD-CCA? 

[15] A: No, not if we have encrypted the movie. 

[16] Q: If you encrypted the movie and I created a player that 

[17] could deencrypt that movie, could Warner sell that DVD to me? 

[18] A: I think that would violate the license with DVD-CCA. 

[19] MR. GARBUS: Can I have a moment, your Honor? 

[20] THE COURT: Yes. 

[21] Q: Now, do any of your business plans — and I think you have 
[22] mentioned this — in Warner Brothers take into account DeCSS? 
[23] The five year plan, tiiat you have mentioned. Does any other 
[24] specifically take into account DeCSS? 
[25] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I believe this has been 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





( ay o "-r\j\j 




Page 457 


[1] 


LOVClCU 111 piHJl L1U55. 


[1] 


THE WITNESS: Okay. 


KJ 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


[2] 


Q: Have you ever seen or have you ever heard Mr. Valenti say 


[3] 


Vx > 1 1JVC ytJLl CVC1 5CC11 till V y)\ Coo I ClC*toC3 11 VJ111 IHC j.tii /VrV a<iyjJl^ 


[3] 


that the CSS hack is useless? 


[4] 


tlvit \f*t mr* shnw vol l Fvhihif 


[4] 


A: I don't remember that exact quote coming from Mr. Valenti. 


[5] 


THF PnilRT" M is in MirhaeP 
1 ML \-f\J\J n 1 . ivi tto ill l v iiv_ll<iv:i: 


[5] 


Q : Well, in substance do you remember any quotes coming from 




Ivlri. VJMnDUO. ICS. xVltiy 1 «1 jJ|_Jl vj«lv_l 1 111C UCHdl; 


[6] 


the MPAA or any other movie studio saying fundamentally that 


I'J 


THF COURT- Yes 


[7] 


the CSS hack is useless because the cost of making an illegal 


18] 


VjI. JL/1U y<JU CVCl oCC 111*1 L lClCaaC: 


[8] 


copy is too high? Just yes or no. 


[9] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, we are trying to come up with 


[9] 


A: Yes. 


[10] 


s\ c*r\T\\r of" this 


[10] 


Q: Do you recall statements by Mr. Valenti that deencrypted 


[11] 


THE COURT: Mr. Garbus, maybe you can give counsel a 


[11] 


movies on the Internet are useless because they are not of 


[12] 


copy. 


[12] 


such a greater quality? 


[13] 


MR. GOLD: we nave ZM. 


[13] 


A: No. 


[14] 


1 nfc uUUH l : Z as in zebra, Defendants ZM. do you 


[14] 


Q: Do you recall any statements by Mr. Valenti, lengthy 


[15] 


have it now, Mr. Gold? 


[15] 


talking about the difficulty of making copies through DeCSS or 


[16] 


MR. GOLD: les, ZM. 


[16] 


the CSS hack? 


[17] 


Q: Have you ever seen that press release before? 


[17] 


A: No. 


[18] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I believe — this is a 


[18] 


Q: Now, you say you saw the draft of tins document? 


[19] 


1 . . 1*1 1 t 1 Jl * A. ' 1 1 A. 

document as to which you have held it is work product. 


[19] 


A: It looks familiar. 


[20] 


IHb CUUHI: wnatr 


[20] 


Q: When did you sec the draft? 


[21] 


mart s*\ i r\ w7- i _ j - *i _ .* , i x a i • 

MR. GOLD: We have made the assertion that this is 


[21] 


A: To the best of my recollection probably a meeting at the 


[22] 


work product, this document. 


[22] 


MPAA. 


123] 


THE COURT: This is one of the tilings that was 


f231 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, we just asserted our work 


[24] 


produced under the no waiver? 


[24] 


product privilege as to this document. 


[25] 


MR. GOLD: Yes, your Honor. 


f251 


THE COURT* Rit/ht now he is 'iskinp whether she saw it 




Page 456 




Page 458 


[1] 


MR. HERNSTADT: No, your Honor, that one wasn't. 


[1] 


or drafted it. I'm not sure which. 


12] 


T»l 1 1 . t 

There may have been others. 


[2] 


MR. GOLD: The question is did she see it. 


[3] 


THE COURT: It has a Bates number on it.\ou fellows 


[3] 


THE COURT: Yes. 


[4] 


* . A. 1 t 1 * C* A.1 * A. 

ougnt to be able to figure tins out. 


[4] 


Q: Did you see it? 


[5] 


MR. HERNSTADT: All the no waiver documents were 


[5] 


A: I think so. 


[6] 


stamped. 


[6] 


Q: And how do you know that it was not released? 


m 


MR. SIMS: This was officially produced without a 


[7] 


A: I believe we decided not to do a press release. That's 


[8] 


stamp, and we sent them a letter, it was privileged as they 


[8] 


the best of my recollection. 


[93 


know because they have seen the other documents. It was never 


[9] 


Q: Why was that? 


[10] 


released as a press release and it was drafted largely by 


[10] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, that's part of the privilege. 


[11] 


lawyers. 


[11] 


THE COURT: Where was this decision made and by whom? 


[12] 


THE COURT: Look, Mr. Garbus, I think you are 


[12] 


THE WITNESS: It was made by all lawy ers at the MPAA, 


[13] 


entitled to find out at a minimum whether it was ever 


[13] 


at a meeting to discuss how to handle this threat, what type 


[14] 


released, because if it was there is no question of privilege. 


[14] 


of litigation should we take. It was all in the context of 


[15] 


So, see if you can deal with that. 


[15] 


deciding how to respond to DeCSS in an overall context. 


[16] 


MK. uAKoUo: Mr. Gola, was it ever released? 


[16] 


THE COURT: Look, it seems to me that to the extent 


[17] 


MR. GOLD: We were advised it was not released. 


[17] 


lawyers were sitting around discussing legal matters, that's 


[18] 


1 nc LrUUri 1 . Mr. vjOki is not tne witness. 


[1£] 


one thing. To the extent lawyers are sitting around being 


[19] 


Q: Ms. King, do you know if it was ever released? 


[19] 


public relations consultants, that's another thing. So, I 


[20] 


A: I don't think it was released. 


[20] 


don't see, I don't think, Mr. Gold, any valid objection to the 


[21] 


Q: Have you ever seen any statements made by Mr. Valenti 


[21] 


witness testifying. 


[22] 


saying that the so-called CSS hack is useless? 


[22] 


MR. GOLD: We respectfully suggest that if it was 


[23] 


A: Well, I may have seen this draft. 


[23] 


released then the lawy ers were sitting around engaging in 


[24] 


THE COURT: That's not the question. Forget the 


[24] 


public relations, if a decision was made not to release it, I 


[25] 


document. 


[25] 


believe the lawyers were sitting around engaging in the 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 459 

[1] practice of law. 

[2] THE COURT: I sec. Your theory is that in substance 
[3] the nonrelease embodies the legal advice they gave their 
[4] client. What about that, Mr. Garbus? 
[5] MR. GARBUS: I disagree. 

[6] THE COURT: I know you disagree, but is there a 
[7] reason you disagree? 

[8] MR. GARBUS: I think functioning in the area of 
[9] public relations and deciding what to release and what not to 
[10] release, you are sitting — well, first of all we get into who 
[11] else was in the room. Put that aside. 
[12] I don't think that's a lawyer's function and that the 
[13] whole question of press releases and public releases do not 
[U] come within the attorney/client privilege. 
[15] In this case, where you have a great deal of public 
[16] information being released by the MPAA, either with or without 
117] its lawyers, then what is out there is certainly waived, and I 
[18] think that that waiver also applies to what's in there. 
[19] THE COURT: Suppose you were advising a criminal 
[20] defendant who had been indicted in a case as to whether or not 
[21] to issue a press release giving the defendant's version of the 
[22] facts and coming to the conclusion that the government was all 
[23] wet in indicting him. Do you think that's legal advice? 
[24] MR. GARBUS: I think a criminal situation like that 
[25] is totally different. 



Page 460 

[1] THE COURT: Could you just answer the question I put 
[2] to you? 

[3] MR. GARBUS: I can't. I just think it's so 
[4] different. I think here you have a series of — I think we 
[5] can agree in this case that there had been a series of press 
[6] releases. 

[7] Let me move on to the next exhibit. 

[8] THE COURT: All right. 

[9] Q: Let me show you Exhibit RK. 
[10] MR. GARBUS: May I approach the bench? 
[11] THE COURT: Yes. 

[12] Q: Is that your name at the top of that document? 

[13] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, may we just wait until we 

[14J can — are we dealing with RV? 

[15] THE COURT: No, K as in knight. 

[16] MR. GOLD: Thank you, your Honor. 

[17] THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Garbus, please. 

[18] Q: Have you ever seen that document which is the first page? 

[19] It says to Marsha King. 

[20] A: Well, I believe so. 

[21] Q: And is Dean Marks at the MPAA? 

[22] A: No, he isn't. 

[23] Q: Where is he? 

[24] A: Dean Marks is with Time Warner. 

[25] Q: John Schulman? 



Page 461 

[1] A: Warner Brothers. 
[2] Q: Ed Weiss? 
[3] A: Time Warner. 
[4] Q: Jeremy Williams? 
[5] A: Warner Brothers. 
[6] Q: Bernard Sorkin? 
[7] A: Time Warner. 

[8] Q: Now look at the next page. Do you see a quote in the 

[9] fourth paragraph from James Cardwell? 
[10] A: Yes, I do. 
[11] Q: Who is James Cardwell? 

[12] A: James Cardwell is the executive vice president of North 

[13] American, Australia, New Zealand for Warner Home Video. 

[14] Q: Looking at that document, does this refresh your 

[15] recollection that Mr. Cardwell told CNN — 

[16] THE COURT: Now, just a minute, Mr. Garbus. She 

[17] hasn't said that her recollection needed refreshing, first of 

[18] all, so there is no foundation for the question. 

[19] Secondly, you know perfectly well that this is 

[20] hearsay. If it was offered against you, you would have 

[21] objected to it strenuously. If you want to ask a question in 

[22] an unsensational fashion, I think you know how. 

[23] Q: Do you know if Mr. Cardwell ever made a statement on 

[24] behalf of Warner with respect to his expectation that the CSS 

[25] code would be broken? 

Page 462 

[1] A: I was shown this article. I was not there. 

[2] Q: Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Cardwell — 

[3] wasn't it the position of Warner Brothers they had expected 

[4] the source code to be broken, that you weren't surprised it 

[5] was broken and you believed there was no economic incentive to 

[6] hacking the product? Wasn't that the Warner Brothers 

[7] position? 

[8] MR. GOLD: I object to the form of that question. 
[9] THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 

[10] Q: Did anybody to your knowledge at Warner Brothers ever say 
[11] we expected the source code to be broken? 
[12] A: I don't remember anyone actually saying that, but it could 
[13] have been said. 

[14] Q: And what did they say, if not exactly that, what your 
[15] expectation was — 
[16] (Record read) 

[17] Q: — with respect to the breaking of the code? 
[18] A: It's difficult. We didn't have a joint expectation with 
[19] respect to T !ie code. We always kru-w that with any code there 
[20] was a possibility it could be hacked. 

[21] Q: And to your knowledge,did anyone at Warner — by the way, 
[22] after you saw this document, did you at any time speak to 
[23] anyone at Warner Brothers to determine whether or not Cardwell 
[24] had said that? 
[25] A: Yes, I did. 



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Trial Volume 3 
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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





Page 463 




Page 465 


I 'J 


Q: Who did you speak to? 


[1] 


A: It came about because I had been at an MPAA meeting and 




A: Mr. Card well. 


[2] 


they had shown me tJiis very same piece of information and 




Q: What did he say? 


[3] 


asked me if I could find out about it. When I got back to the 


[4] 


A: He said he didn't remember those exact words but he could 


I 4 ] 


oiiicc, tiicy vvcic in a meeting logcuier, anu ou 1 went 111 


rci 


hivp Siiirl it 

1 1*4 VL OtX 1 VI 11. 


[5] 


there and showed it to Jim, asked them if I could interrupt, 


f61 
l°J 


Q: And when did you speak to Mr. Cardwell? 


[6] 


and I did. 


I'J 


A* The dav that T saw this articlf or saw something similar 


m 


Q: And after Mr. Cardwell said whatever he said, what then 


f81 

L°J 


to tlii s article. 


[8] 


happened? 


rai 
\P\ 


Q: And if he didn't remember the exact words, did he tell you 


[9] 


A: Excuse me? 


nm 
i 1 m 


what he did say? 


[10] 


Q: Tell me what happened in the room. 


n 11 

V 'J 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor. I object on hearsay grounds. 


[11] 


A: Well, I asked him if he had said that, and, you know, he 




THE COURT- Mr Cardwell? Overruled 


[12] 


said he didn't exactly remember but he could have, and I said 


[13] 




[13] 


okay, and then 1 left basically. 


[14] 


\jt . IM1 I 11 11 UC Vj LJ1C Wtl^j UJJ.3 »ll 11C1C lo DUCK lil 


[14] 


Q: And did Mr. Lieberfarb say an>tliing? 




linii'irv 1 ^ of thi* vp;ir ^OOO Did von pvpr nsk him whpn thpv 


[15] 


A: I don't remember liim saying anything . 


[16] 


expected the source code to be broken? 


[16] 


Q: Did you show him this article when you asked him if he 


I 17 l 


M. iNO, 1 UlUll I. 


[17] 


said that? 


118] 


Q: Did you ever ask anybody at Warner Brothers when they 


[18] 


A: Yes, I did. 


[19] 


CALJCV.ICL1 LJ lv. SvJlllCC V.UUC X.KJ L/C UlVJIVCH; 


[19] 


Q: And do you know where that article comes from? 


[20] 


A. I 

M. 1 


[20] 


A: No. I think I showed him tins or something similar to 


[21] 


MR. GOLD: \our Honor, I don't understand so lar as 


[21] 


this, but it was a similar quote. 


[22] 


it relates to source code. 


[22] 


MR. GARBUS: I offer the document into evidence. 


[23] 


THE COURT: I think that point is well taken, but, 


[23] 


It's an exception to the hearsay rule. It come in as an 


[24] 


you know, the witness can answer if she can. 


[24] 


exception because it explains a course of conduct that is 


125] 


A: I don't know the answer to that. We didn't have a Warner 


[25] 


ultimately taken, namely litigation here. January 13 is the 




Pano AP,A 
raUc tut 




Page 466 


[1] 


expecta tion . 


[1] 


date of the lawsuit here and of course there is the litigation 


[2] 


THE COURT: Does the concept of breaking a source 


[2] 


before in December. And I think that all of these documents 


[3] 


code have any meaning to you, Ms. KjLng? 


[3] 


come in, and we have several others, as an exception to the 




TUP WITMPQQ* Ma Th*» wrn\r I'm fhinl/ino r\F it T 

j nc vvi i in coo. ino. iiie way 1 m imnKing 01 it, i 


[4] 


hearsay rule because it shows exactly what Warner Brothers was 


[5] 


guess is breaking the encryption. 


[5] 


doing to deal with this particular problem. I offer it in 


[6] 


THF COURT* Proceed 


[6] 


evidence. 


[7] 


Q: Did he ever tell you that we expected CSS to be broken? 


[7] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, this document, as is apparent 


[8] 


IVin. UvLU^ IwLll x lvJUOl , lift 31 1 I Llltll L/CC11 tlJIvCd «ill(J 


[8] 


from the cross-examination of the witness, is offered for the 


[9] 


diibwcrcu twice «iiiu ruicu on, my ODjc*_tionr 


[9] 


truth of the material contained therein, and I believe it's 


[10] 


1 nc L/UUn i . l tninK so. ousiainea. it s cumulative. 


[10] 


clearly hearsay. 


I 11 ] 


Q: And did you ask him about the sentence, we were surprised 


[11] 


MR. GARBUS: I also believe that even the way the 


[12] 


it wasn't broken earlier, what he meant by that? 


[12] 


witness testifies to it, assuming it's of any significance, 


[13] 


A* Ma fh'if'< r\f\t WTni t T icI/^H him 
M. l^HJ, llltil 5 HOI Vvlltll 1 ttoKCU lllill. 


[13] 


that it's an admission of a party. 


[14] 


\Y/ hit HiH vr\n 'icI/? 
\J. Wllal U1U yOtl doK: 


[14] 


MR. GOLD: Not this, your Honor. 


[15] 


A: I asked him if he had said this. 


[15] 


THE COURT: Well, there is a double hearsay problem 


[16] 


Q: And he said he had said it substantially, is that right? 


[16] 


with that, Mr. Garbus, and the double hearsay problem is that 


[17] 


A: He said he couldn't remember but it could have been said. 


[17] 


if you had somebody testifying on personal knowledge to what 


[18] 


Q: Now when you asked hi m that, who else asked him? Who was 


[16] 


Mr. Cardwell said, that would be an admission. But what you 


[19] in the room when that question was asked of him? 


[19] 


have is a newspaper reporter saying that Mr. Cardwell told him 


[20] 


A: Warren Lieberfarb. 


[20] 


something, and that's the link, that is the double hearsay 


[21] 


Q: And who is he? 


[21] 


problem. 


[22] 


A: He is the president of Warner Home Video. 


[22] 


Nonetheless, it seems to me that so much of RK as 


[23] 


Q: And did xMr. Lieberfarb say anything at that meeting? 


[23] 


consists on the cover sheet, and the sentence on the second 


[24] 


A: No. 


[24] 


page purporting to quote Mr. Cardwell, the whole purported 


[25] 


Q: Tell me how that meeting came about. 


[25] 


quote from Mr. Cardwell comes in for what it's worth in light 



Page 463 - Page 466 (16) Min-U-Script® SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 467 

[1] of Mr. Cardwell's direct admission to the witness that he 
[2] could have said it and whatever else she said he said. I 
[3] think it is close enough that there is a foundation on which I 
[4] could find that it was an adoption by the witness of the 
[5] statement, and so it comes in on that basis and to that 
[6] extent. 

[7] THE COURT: I meant to say an adoption by 
[8] Mr. Card well, not an adoption by the witness. 
[9] MR. GARBUS: Your Honor, can we take our morning 
[10] break now? 

[1 1] THE COURT: All right. 1 5 minutes. 

[12] (Defendants' Exhibit RK received in evidence) 

[13] (Recess) 

[14] MR. ATLAS: Before we go on the lunch break if we. 

[15] could just figure out the scheduling for the next couple of 

[16] days. We are just trying to tell our witnesses with some 

[17] precision when they are going to be called. It would take 

[18] maybe five minutes. I think we are hoping to look for 

[19] something like a Friday to begin our case. If that's okay 

[20] with the Court and if that's okay with the other side, we can 

[21] get our witnesses lined up. 

[22] THE COURT: We will talk about it later. 

Mr. Gold, remind me, is there a claim for declaratory 
[23] relief in this case? Do you want to go back and check? All 
right. 

[24] Mr. Garbus, you may proceed. 
(Continued on next page) 

[25] 



Page 468 

[1] CROSS-EXAMINATION Continued 
[2] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[3] Q: Ms. King, I'm going to try and pick up where Mr. Gold 
[4] began examination and I'll try and do it quickly so we can 
[5] finish before lunch. 

[6] When did you start at Warner Home Video? 
[7] A: Beginning of March 1990. 

[8] Q: And when did you start begin working on DVD? 

[9] A: We didn't call it DVD, but I did some work on that during 
[10] the year 1990. 
[11] Q: What did you then call it? 
[12] A: We called it movie on a disk. 

[13] Q: And at some point does that get called DVD or whatever 
[14] that predecessor was? 

[15] A: Then it was called Taz and then it was called DVD. 
[16] Q: And about when was it called DVD? 
[17] A: '96, it had been called SD as well. 
[18] Q: And at the very beginning of these conversations, was 
[19] there a concern about a security system for whatever was 
[20] called that was going to be released the movie on a disk? 
[21] A: Well, when it was just an idea, there wasn't a security 
[22] system. 

[23] Q: When did it go beyond being just an idea? 

[24] A: Well, when it was coming in to being reality and the studio 

[25] started meeting, we talked about a security system. I believe 



Page 469 

[1] that was around 1995. 

[2] Q: So that the first time — 

[3] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, if I may, this line of 

[4] questioning that goes back in time, back before 1996 when this 

[5] was released and on into the early '90s hasn't got any 

[6] relevance to this case whatsoever. 

[7] THE COURT: Well, look, you know why Mr. Garbus wants 

[8] to go into it and Mr. Garbus knows why he wants to go into it 

[9] and it hasn't got much to do with the issues in the case and I 

[10] know why he wants to go into it. He's trying to do some 

[1 1] discovery for another purpose. 

[12] MR GOLD: Yes, your Honor. 

[13] MR. GARBUS: No, I'm not. I'll skip it.That's not 

[14] the point. 

[15] THE COURT: Pardon me? 

[16] MR. GARBUS: That's absolutely not the point and I'll 

[17] skip it. I'll start with 1996. That has nothing to do — I 

[18] see what's implied and it has nothing to do with that at all. 

[19] I don't know when it started. I don't know when they thought 

[20] of security systems. 

[21] THE COURT: Mr. Garbus, relax. There was something 

[22] else I was going to say on that subject, but in light of your 

[23] representation that that's not what it's all about and you 

[24] will skip it, I will accept the representation that we will go 

[25] on. 



Page 470 

[1] Q: Now — 

[2] THE COURT: If you want to press it, then we will 
[3] deal with it. 

[4] Q: Now, when you started working on what we call DVD, let's 
[5] say 1995, and don't tell me anything about before 1995, was 
[6] that when the name DVD first came in or was it '96? 
[7] A: I can't exactly remember when the name DVD came in.The 
[8] two competing optical disk formats were converged I believe in 
[9] September of '95. 

[10] DVD as a name, since there was a convergence of two 
[11] standards, one called SD and one called MMCD came in after 
[12] that. So, it was either late '95 or early '96. 

[13] Q: And when for the first time after January 1, 1995 did they 

[14] start discussing encryption systems or security systems? 

[15] A: I can't — I can't remember the initial date and I've been 

[16] given nothing to refresh my memory. I could find it, I'm 

[17] sure, in my files. 

[18] But around that time in '95, the motion picture 
[19] companies started discussing legislation. Originally it was a 
[20] legislative proposal between consumer electronics and the 
[21] motion picture industry to protect their product in the 
[22] digital domain. 
I Q: And tell me just a little about those conversations? 
I A: Those conversations were — originally we looked at the 



[25] Audio Home Recording Rights Act where they had a big stream 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



Min-U-Script® 



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Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





Pane 471 




rage 473 


[1] 


vviiicj I Jiau 10 uc rccugiiizcu. vvc wcic iLHJKiiig at lcgiMULiLMi 


[1] 


Honor. 


[2] 


similar 10 mai, nowever, you wouicin i uc auie 10 maice a copy 


[2] 


THE COURT: Yes, look, this is now enough, Mr. 


13] 


as you are under the Recording Home Rights Act. 


[3] 


Garbus. I have an affirmative obligation that I recognize. 


l 4 l 


TI"»/» iccup VI71C* r^/~\ v\ 7 T\f*f*f~\ tl*»/a rAmnutfT t rwli i«;tr\'' in 
1 I1C lbjUC Wtlo. LJ\J VVC J1CCLI II1C CCllipUld JJ lvJLlDLi J 111 


[4] 


As far as I'm concerned, I have discharged it. You can now 


15] 


the room? We certainly at^v'arner said we did. Other studios 


[5] 


proceed and handle this case. 


[6] 


ciiH \\7f* HiH Fii«snf v infliiHeH W"hf*n wp finiillv nmp nr> with 

WC U1U, X*flOH\~J Ll LH.IV- VJ. VY J1V.J1 VV lLHtXLLj ^tUJLIV. Li VJ Willi 


[6] 


MR. GARBUS: Thank you. 


[7] 


some proposea legislation ano Drougni me 11 inuusiry into uic 


[7] 


Q: Now — 


[8] 


room, we stopped the legislation and sat down and started from 


[8] 


MR. GARBUS: Can we just approach the bench for a 


[9] 


scratch on a new security idea that that would be acceptable 


[9] 


moment, your Honor? 


110] 


by the computer industry along with a new type of legislation 


[10] 


THE COURT: I'm sorry? 


[11] 


to protect us. 


[11] 


MR. GARBUS: Can we approach the bench for a moment? 


112] 


Q: And the people — 


[12] 


THE COURT: Yes. 


1*13] 


i nc "wUUn 1 . excuse me a minute, ivir. vjarDus. 


[13] 


(At the sidebar) 


[14] 


Are you able to say from your own knowledge whether 


[14] 


MR. GARBUS: I'm not going to pursue this line of 


[15] 


Warner was working on encryption prior to January of 1995? 


[15] 


inquiry any further. It seems perfectly obvious to me that 


[16] 


1 He Wl 1 Nbbo: INo, we weren t. 


[16] 


even before the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 that anyone 


117] 


I He UOUH 1 : Proceed. 


[17] 


who was thinking of releasing any product into the consumer 


[18] 


Q: Now. with respect to, instead of encryption, how about the 


[18] 


market was extraordinarily concerned about security. 


[19] 


word — since the judge asked the question — how about 


[19] 


What this witness has just answered is, and I don't 


[20] 


security system? Was there any concern prior to '95 expressed 


[20] 


remember her question and answer, that you were not going to 


[21] 


about security for the videos — pardon me — for the movies 


[21] 


have a product released, she just gave a "yes" to my last 


[22] 


that were — could be released? 


[22] 


question. I'm not going to state it here and I'm not going to 


[23] 


A: I don't remember that being a topic that I participated 


[23] 


go any further with it, but it's inconceivable to me — I 


[24] 


in. 


[24] 


won't say what's inconceivable to me. 


[25] 


Q: You say you don't remember being a topic that you 


[25] 


MR GOLD: Your Honor, the witness has testified that 




Page 472 




Page 474 


[1] 


participated? 


[1] 


Warner had made the decision that they were not going to 


[2] 


A: We were trying to come up — we had a certain window of 


[2] 


release DVDs unless there was an encryption system that they 


[3] 


opportunity, we felt, in the video industry, at least at 


[3] 


felt good about. She also testified that at the meeting, she 




Warner Brothers, and we were part — we were a large part of 


[4] 


went to in the industry, she heard and knew that the other 


[5] 


the development of DVD. 


[5] 


studios felt the same way. 


[6] 


We wanted to get this hard copy consumer product into 


[6] 


THE COURT: Look, I don't have to hear all of that. 


[7] 


the market before high definition television and before video 


[7] 


This is exceptionally simple. The only reason I raise the 


[8] 


on demand was widely available. We wanted to get consumer 


[8] 


question is because quite apart from what the parties have 


[9] 


acceptance and we knew we had a limited window of opportunity. 


[9] 


raised, I have an independent obligation under Section 


110] 


So, before you can think about security, you have to think 


[10] 


455(b)(2) of the Code to disqualify myself if it appears that 


1113 


about having a product and we were immersed in developing the 


[11] 


someone with whom I practiced law at the time I did so was 


[12] 


product. 


[12] 


engaged by a party "concerning the matter." 


(13] 


Q: Now, one of the issues with the AHRA, do you know what 


[13] 


It is a subject in the context of this case on which 


[14] 


that stands for? 


[14] 


I have no knowledge of my own. I am entirely at the mercy of 


[15] 


A: The Audio Home Recording Rights Act. 


[15] 


what the parties put before me. I don't know that I had. An 


[16] 


Q: Yes, and that's 1992? 


[16] 


obligation extending so far as to ask the question that I did, 


117] 


A: I don't know the date. 


[17] 


but I now have before me the witness' deposition testimony. I 


(18] 


Q: One of the issues there was the question of security for 


[16; 


have what she ^aid here. 


[19] audio recordings, is that right? 


[19] 


I have the affidavits that were put before me on the 


[20] 


A: That's how I understand it. 


[20] 


motion. And the issue is, as far as I'm concerned, closed 


[21] 


Q: So, everybody understood after 1992 that you had to have 




flh^f^nl npw pvirlpnf^ 1 t\c\ nnf viftn/ tfiic trill a« i ( li crnuprv 
itUaClli nv-w v. vivjv,i lv_c 1 V.1VJ JIL/l Vlv,W LJLIa Ll 1*11 do a vJ15v_\JYCl y 


[22j some kind of security system for any product that was released 


[22] 


proceeding for the purpose of conducting an expedition in 


[23] 


into the market? 


[23] 


search of that new evidence. Obviously, if there is such 


[24] 


A: That's right. 


[24] 


evidence and it requires my disqualification, I will readily 


125] 


MR. GOLD: I object to the form of the question, your 


[25] 


do so, but I haven't seen it and what we are here to try now 



Page 471 - Page 474 (18) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





Page 475 




PariA /I "77 
rdyfc? *f / / 


[1] 


is this case. 


[1] 


regulation. However — 


[2] 


MR. GARBUS: So, can I understand something? So, 


[2] 


vv. wny not: 


13] 


then I should not continue the line of questioning leading 




A* Rppiinsp that wm iIH mpm thpv hiwp to ph^inpp thp structure 

r^m ULtaUjt 11 lit l WUUJU 11 JL_ttJ l Li IV- y i it* v v. v. 1 1**1 i£V- li i\_ jii li ll*i \- 




from the AHRA of '92 up to '95 and '96? 


L 4 J 


Ar ill 1 11 i r- rAmmitpf c 

u 1 aii Liicii cuiupiiicro. 


15] 


THE COURT: I can't make abstract rulings like that. 


r^i 
PJ 




{6] 


I believe that I said in my opinion, Mr. Garbus, that one 


[6] 


A: Because we were saying, computers — we were saying that 


[7] 


reasonably might infer, although I don't have the text in 


[7] 


cvci yunc juju 10 pui in a ceruiiii uit, aiiyuuiig uiai cvjiiiu 


[8] 


front of me, that somebody probably thought about security at 


roi 
l s J 


f/^/^/^f /"I tKi^tr /'li/'lr^'f Tiro n t 1">a» ciil^i/^^t t/~\ tli'lt l/ 3, oicl /, itir\n 
1Cv,VJ1vJ (tllU UlCy UlUIl 1 Wtllll LU L/C allUJCv.1 IVJ II lttl lCi£l3lttliv/Jl. 


{9] 


some earlier point, but somebody thinking about security and 


[9] 


And Microsoft, for example, said it was religious 


110] 


my partner, former partner, having been engaged with respect 


[10] 


with them not to be subject to that type of legislation, but 


[11] 


to security, if indeed that would be enough, which I express 


n ii 

U 'J 


all thp comniiter pomnnnips fplt stronplv 

<*JUL Lllv. *-V.'I Illy li IV- 1 V_ \J Alll/tlJ 1_|V_^ 1 x_ 1 L JU vJlwi Y* 


[12] 


no view on right now, in the period prior to August 22, 199-4 


[12] 


So, we sat and met with them and listened to their 


[13] 


is a whole other matter. 


[13] 


propooai duuui ti way uiai coiuci DC a goou Miuauuii 101 


[14] 


MR. GARBUS: Thank you. 


[14] 


everyone involved. It was unprecedented that tliree major 


[15] 


(In open court) 


[15] 


industries got together to talk about a way to be able to 


116] 


BY MR. GARBUS: 


[16] 


distribute to the consumer the highest quality of product. 


[17] 


Q: Any question that I ask you now, I want to direct, whether 


t 17 ] 


even in the computer environment, but yet to be protected. 


1 lo J 


I state it or not, to only after January 1, 1995; is that 


[18] 


So, we sat down with the — 


[19] 


clear? 


[19] 


Q: Excuse me. So, the tliree major industries are the 




A: Yes. 


[20] 


recording industry, the motion picture industry, and the 


[21] 


Q: Now, at the time these various groups were meeting, was it 


[21] 


computer companies? 


r??i 
i"j 


all of the movie studio — the representatives of all of the 


[22] 


A: Well, when you say, "recording industry," the consumer 


123] 


movie studios? 


[23] 


electronic industry. It's not the music industry. 


124] 


A: All of the MPAA members participated in the discussions on 


[24] 


So, we sat down. We had groups of engineers working 


[25] 


copy protection. 


[25] 


and we had policy people talking about legislation and we 




Pane 476 




rage 478 


rn 


O" And who pIkp if nnvonp? 


[1] 


had — we set up a group called the Copy Protection Technical 




A* VC^p mpt spnnrntplv inH wp mpt \x/ith thp rnnsnmpr Flpptronips 


[2] 


Working Group, which was open to the pubhc.And the meetmgs 


131 


Manufacturing Association in the United States. 


[3] 


were announced, and what the computer industry said was, if 


f41 


Q: And who was that? Those are the people who make — 


[4] 


you were to encrypt your product, if you were to scramble it, 


pj 


A* Thosp nrp thp mninr ponsi impr plpptronips rnmnnnips Sonv 


[5] 


then we in the computer industry could decide whether or not 


T61 
l°J 


Phillip s, Toshiba, Matsushita Electronics, Incorporated, I 


[6] 


we wanted our computers to have that feature on it. 


t' j 


believe, the major players. 


[7] 


If we didn t, we d just go ahead and make our 


[8] 


Q: Let me just see if I can, and correct me if I'm wrong: 


[8] 


computers, however, we want, and if we do want that feature on 


[9j 


One group of people, the people who make the movies, the other 


[9] 


it, then since it's encrypted, we go and get a license and 




group of people are the people, if the movies have been 


[10] 


then we are subject to the rules witliin the license. 


n n 


released make the hardware to r>lav the consumer nrodncts is 


[11] 


And in addition, we talked about the third prong. It 


M21 
l ,c -l 


that right? 


[12] 


was a three-pronged regime that we came up with in all these 


ri3i 


A* That's porrp P t TliPV"\vprppon«;iitTriprplpptronip^pp«nrir*'inif»< 


[13] 


groups. One was technology, whether it be encryption or water 


M 41 


O* And fhfn wh;it hannpnpH iis to th p«;p rli«;pii«;«sinn<;? \X7i«; th^rp 


[14] 


marking or digital transmission, but technology, the use of 


1151 


ever a discussion of licensing of this product? 


[15] 


new technology that we in the motion picture industry had to 


I'vJ 


A* No this wns nrior to f^S^ Thprp wa^ Hi^pii^inn nf 


[16] 


embrace new technology as a way to protect our films and to 


i 1 'J 


legislation. That's what it basically was all about. And 


[17] 


use our films. I mean, if you want to have digital films, we 


[18] 


like I said, when we came out with a draft legislative 


[18] 


are using digital technology. 




Dronosal the comouter industrv reiected it and wp stnrtpd 


[19] 


Secondly, that with that technology comes 


[20] 


leading with the computer industry. 


[20] 


responsibility and licensing. So, if you want to show our 


[21] 


Q: And tell me just in short substance about those 


[21] 


movies, you need to make a deal with us that if you have the 


[22] 


conversations. 


[22] 


keys to unlock our house and look at our crown jewels, that 


[23] 


A: Well, in short, the computer industry said, unlike in the 


[23] 


when you leave, you're going to lock it up, O.K., so it can't 


[24] Audio Home Recording Rights Act, they did not want their 


[24] 


be sent everywhere. That was the second piece. 


[25] general purpose computers to be subject to legislation and 

— _ , 


[25] 


Then the third piece was, well, if you have the keys 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, RC 



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Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 479 

[1] to unlock our house, and you don't lock it up or you break the 
[2] window and get inside, then we need legislation to protect 
13] someone who is stealing the keys and using it illegally. So, 
[4] it was a three-pronged regime that we came up in those 
[5] multi-industry negotiations. They took a long time. 
[6] Q: This is 1995,1996? 
[7] A: This is 9996, at least. 
[8] Q: 1996, at least? 

[9] THE COURT: "1996, at least" meaning when? 
110] THE WITNESS: Meaning it wasn't prior to 1996. 
H 1] THE COURT: Thank you. 
[12] Q: And go on. Continue. 
{13] THE COURT: What's die question? 
114] THE WITNESS: Yeah. 
[15] MR. GARBUS: Pardon me? 
[16] THE COURT: What's the question? 

[17] Q: Alter you started to recognize the need for legislation, 
[18] what did the movie industry do? What did the consumer 
119] electronics industry do? 

[20] A: Well, our first focus was — although legislation was 

[21] always part of the three-pronged approach, our first focus was 

[223 on the technology. 

[23] The consumer electronics and computer industries 

124] wanted to bring this product to market. They thought it was a 

[25] good product. We thought it was — we at Warner Brothers 

Page 480 

[1] thought it was a great product. So, the first phase we went 
[2] through it with was how are we going to protect the product 
[3] and, therefore, we were looking at teclmologies to encrypt. 
[4] Q: And when you say — and then what happened? 
[5] A: And then we adopted CSS. 

[6] Q: Were any consumers rights groups involved in any of these 
[7] tri-industry discussions? 

[8] A: I know that the Home Recording Rights Coalition 
[9] representatives were at all of these meetings. So, I mean 

1103 there were consumer advocate groups at the meetings; yes. 

11 1] Q: And then what happened? In other words, the technology 

112] moves apace, the attempts for legislation move apace, is that 

[13] right? 

[14] A: We finalize the technology in mid-to-late '96 and I think 
[15] simultaneously with finalizing the teclinology, we were working 
[16] on the licensing agreements and I don't remember the exact 
[17] timing. I just know when Warner released its product at that 
[18] point and we did not release until we had the ability to 
[19] encrypt it. 

[20] MR. GARBUS: Now, excuse me. Can I hear the last 
[21] answer, please? 

[22] THE WITNESS: We did not release our product until we 
[23] had the ability to encrypt it. 
[24] Q: And when was that? 

[25] A: In the United States, it was March of 1 997. 



Page 481 

[1] Q: Now, prior to that time, had a licensing scheme been 
[2] worked out? 

[3] A: I can't give you exact specifics, but there were intense 
[4] negotiations on the licensing scheme. 
[5] Q: And did you play a part in that? 

[6] A: I attended quite a bit of those discussions, many of those 
[7] discussions. 

[8] Q: And are you familiar with licenses that are now used? 

[9] A: I was at one time. I hadn't seen them in two to three 
[10] years, I would guess. 
[11] Q: Let me show you Defendant's — - 
[12] MR. GARBUS: May I approach the bench? 
[13] THE COURT: You may. 

[14] Q: Defendant's Exhibit AJB. Now, this is one of the 
[15] documents that I'm not quite clear about. Before I ask 
[16] questions about it — 

[17] THE COURT: Is it the part in Japanese we are going 
[18] to focus on? Maybe Judge Shinoda can help us. 
[19] MR. GARBUS: It's the part that says "highly 
[20] confidential." 

[21] THE COURT: Mr. Gold, what are we doing here? What's 
j [22] the problem? I see it's not Mr. Gold's documents, it's a 
[23] non-party document. 

[24] MR. GARBUS: Yes, it's a document of DVD-CCA. 
[25] THE COURT: Right. 

Page 482 

[1] MR. GARBUS: But their interests are sufficiently 
[2] similar. 

[3] MR GOLD: Well, this is a — I see, as your Honor 

[4] does, that it's the DVD-CCA has hacked this highly 

[5] confidential attorney's eyes only and although we had — we 

[6] attended the deposition in tiiis case, Mr. Hoy, who is with the 

[7] DVD-CCA, I'm afraid I don't know why the DVD-CCA has marked it 

[8] "confidential; attorney's eyes only." 

[9] THE COURT: Without discussing the terms of the 

[10] document, which is a license agreement, Mr. Garbus, can you 

[1 1] give me a clue without breaching the confidentiality on the 

[12] public record where you are going with this? 

[13] MR. GARBUS: Just to show that the license exists, 

[14] the terms of it. It relates to the antitrust argument. 

[15] THE COURT: I don't know that you have made any 

[16] antitrust arguments, sir. 

[17] MR. GARBUS: We have in our answer. 

[18] THE COURT: And it is what? That the DVD, the DMCA 

[19] violates the antitrust laws? 

[20] MR. GARBUS: No, that wasn't the argument. 

[21] THE COURT: What is the argument? 

[22] MR. GARBUS: The argument is that structure of this 

[23] licensing agreement, namely, that the only people that can 

[24] play like DVDs are people who are also signatories to the 

[25] DVD-CCA license agreement. That thereby excludes people like 



Page 479 - Page 482 (20) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTOICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





Page 483 






[1] 


Linux and that that is anticompetitive and that's the same 


Ml 
I 'J 


DVD-CCA whose interests are those thit nre involved has to be 


[2] 


argument that was made successfully in the Sega case and in 


[2] 


given jiljlicc oi me appiiLtiiion. 


[3) 


the Connectix case and whether or not the DMCA overrules that 


[3] 


MR. GARBUS: I would just ask, as I mentioned before, 


[4] 


or not is an issue that this Court is going to decide. 


Ml 
l 4 J 


t~\ 'i Cf ^ A _ 1 T txtwii1/~I tiict iclr th^» nn^ctiAn on/I T / 1*"in 1 t rifp 
^>**gC/\-l. I VVUUKJ jllol tXJlS. IHC vJUCoLlUll rtllvJ I V.HJ11 L v_ttlC 


{5] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, we have — 


PJ 


\x/lietlier the rnif=»«;iir\n is 'lnsxt/er^rl l-\v this witness in onen eonrt 

WJltUltl 11 1C \J LlColl\Jll lo «IHjVVC1CL1 Uy LI Lid WllJlCDo JLl 1 KJj-J\-ll Cvlll l 


[6] 


MR. GARBUS: That was indicated affirmatively in the 


[6] 


or iVir. vjvjiu, aiiu l cari biipiUiiic to mc jnbwcr, uui 1 11 juoi 


[7] 


answer. 


\7) 


d.5K LJ1C ^LlCMlOJl WJllCll 1 UOIl L LlLLIlK ClCdlCa all I55UC, liailJCiy, 


[8] 


MR GOLD: Every person can get a license from the DVD 


[8] 


now rnany separate licenses are issueci uy uie v^oo in orucr 10 


[9) 


if they pay money and require it and if they sign the license 


[9] 


aiiow — in oilier worcii>, to wmcn pan ac> wc laiivcu aijuui 


(10] 


agreement. I know there are two Linux groups that have. 


[10] 


before, movie studios, replicators and hardware manufacturers, 


[11] 


THE COURT: We heard all that. Let's talk about 


ni] 


now many ouiereni Kinos 01 licenses are issued 10 control mc 


[12] 


tliis, what we are doing with this document. 


[12] 


entire process. 


[13] 


MR. GARBUS: I'm prepared just to offer the document 


[13] 


If you know that, fine. Don't look at the document. 


T141 


into evidence without getting into any further — other than 


[14] 


Do you know that? 


[15] 


if I can just address your attention to page A-l and I'm 


[15] 


A: I just looked at the document, but I certainly didn't know 


[161 


prepared to do that at the bench. 


[16] 


before I looked, I didn't remember. 


[171 
1 1 'J 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, one has to lav a foundation 


[17] 


MR. GARBUS: Perhaps Mr. Gold and I can discuss that. 


M81 


for the document. 


[18] 


TMr r*f~\ 1 IDT. T 1- ^ _ „ „ „ 

I Hh UOUH 1 : 1 nope so. 


[19] 


THE COURT: Mr. Gold, are you really telling me vou 


[19] 


Q: Now, before you mentioned the Home Recording Rights 




don't know if this is a real document at this point? 


[20] 


Coalition, that's funded by the consumer electronics industry? 


[21] 


MR GOLD: I don't know if the witness can tell me if 


[21] 


A: I believe so. I don't really know. 




it's real document. 


[22] 


Q: Now, picking up on your narrative, if I can remember where 


[23] 


THE COURT: I don't know that either, but you are 


[23] 


it was, when does the DVD-CCA come into existence, if you 


[24] 


trying the case. Presumably you know whether this is for real 


[24] 


know? 


[25] 


or not. 


[25] 


A: I wasn't participating in these meetings any longer when 




Page 484 




rage 4ob 


in 


MR. GARBUS: It comes out of the file of the DVD-CCA. 


[1] 


they came into existence, so I believe it's been in existence 




They have three. 


[2] 


around a y r ear. 


T31 


THE COURT: I understand that but we don't have a 


[3] 


Q: And let me, just getting away from the contracts, see if I 


f41 


DVD-CCA witness here. 


[4] 


can understand something. If I go into Tower and buy a Warner 


PJ 


ivin uv/ll/. i vjvji i i jvjujw iio i oiai iu Jicic li n iizs id *x 


[5] 


Brother DVD, give me the name of a film that Warner Brothers 


rei 
i d j 


license that the motion picture companies have. 


[6] 


makes so we can make it more specific. 


in 


THE COURT: I would be tremendously surprised if the 


[7] 


THE COURT: It would have to have Tom Hanks and xMeg 


[8] 


two of you, perhaps even involving a conference call with the 


[8] 


Ryan. 


rqi 


1iiww*r for thp DVD-CCA nn't hv thf* fnrl nf fhf» Hiv <;timilif< 3 ' 

lt\ \v j \-l XK/1 U1V. JLV ¥ l—J VjV^i \ V_il.ll L VJy 11 lv, V-llU KJL Ulv. UaV OUUUlalU 


[9] 


A: "Matrix." "You've Got Mail"; it's our movie. 


[10] 


to as to whether this is authentic or not. 


[10] 


MR. GARBUS: We 11 use the judge s movie. 


n 11 


Now assnminp it is nuthfnfi^ anH it is whnt it 

1 ~ v , it J H 1 it. 1C7 44 11 11 IV- 1 1 11 V~ 4X1 iV4 11 lO W ilul J. L 


[11] 


Q: "Sleepless In Seattle"? 




purports to be, is there any objection to its being received 


[12] 


A: Not our movie. 


M31 


in evidence, Mr. Gold? 


[13] 


Q: Sorry. You ve Got Mail. If I go in, am I authorized by 


1141 


MR GOLD* I think it's irrplpv^inf to thr r^ise vnnr 

• ••11 MW l—l-f. 1 11 LU 1 IV H J 11 1 V,1V> V til 11 Lv 11 IV, V^tlOV., y vlil 


[14] 


Warner Brothers from whom I buy it to look at that DVD? 




Honor. 


[15] 


A: Sure. 


1161 


THE COURT: Beyond that? 


[16] 


Q: Am I authorized by Warner Brothers to — with respect to 


M 71 
I'M 




[17] 


that DVD to somehow break it down so that I can look at it in 


risi 


THE COURT: O.K. I'm t^oin^ to assume for present 


[18] 


my video box? 


[19] 


purposes that it is authentic. I'm going to receive it 


[19] 


THE COURT: What's a video box? What do you mean by 


[20] 


subject to a motion to strike, if somebody can demonstrate to 


[20] 


that? 


[21] 


me that there's a real issue as to authenticity and the 


[21] 


A/ID P ADDI IC \/:.4 n ^ .I.,,.. 

MH. CaAHBUS: Video player. 


[22] 


exhibit, just to be clear, is subject to the confidentiality 


[22] 


MR GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the question. 


l^Jj 


Ar/ipr in true f'lcp It «4T fi ai n n ts\ r^/^ nn/lpi* t - 

vJI LICI 111 LJLlo taat. 11 lb gOLIlg l(_> DC UIlUv.1 btdl. 


[23] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


124] 


Now, that's so long as there's no application to open 


[24] 


Q: Am I authorized by Warner Brothers to make a copy of that 


125] 


it. And if there's an application to open it, obviously the 


[25] 


DVD? 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. Min-U-Script® (21) Page 483 - Page 486 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 487 

[1] A: No. 

[2] Q: Am I authorized by Warner Brothers to take that DVD to an 
[3] unauthorized player, one that does not have a contract with 
[4] theDVD-CCA? 

[5] MR GOLD: Your Honor, I cannot understand the 
(6] relevance of this line. He may be planning other lawsuits, 
[7] but I don't understand the relevance to this one. 
[8] THE COURT: Look, Mr. Garbus, it seems to me that 
[9] what this is beginning to sound like is the start of a debate 
[10] between you and the witness about what the Copyright Act 
[1 1] permits the buyer of a copyrighted work to do with it. 
[12] If that's what it is, that's a debate that you and 
[13] xMr. Gold will have and 1 will decide. It's a legal question. 
[14] And it's not a matter for testimony. If it's something else, 
[15] I don't perceive what it might be. 
[16] MR. GARBUS: It's not a debate. I just want to find 
[17] out the facts as Warner Brothers understands it. 
[18] THE COURT: So, you want Warner Brothers' 
[19] understanding of what the Copyright Act provides? 
[20] MR. GARBUS: No. I want to know, she stands there on 
[21] behalf of Warner Brothers. And I want to know if I can 
[22] whether as she — in my contract, if you will, when I buy this 
[23] from Tower, can I play tliis on any player, anywhere, anywhere 
124] in the world? That's what I want to know. 
[25] THE COURT: The objection is sustained. 

Page 488 

[1] The law is what it is. And arguing with the witness 
[2] about it, even in an entirely amicable way is not an 
[3] appropriate part of this trial. 

[4] MR. GARBUS: Well, it seems to me, and I'm not going 
[5] to press it, and I say this amicably that it's a way of 
[6] getting at least the facts in with respect to — unless we can 
[7] stipulate. 

[8] THE COURT: But the facts are perfectly obvious. 

[9] There is no contract between Warner and the ultimate consumer. 
[10] Warner sells the disks to whomever they sell them to. Tower 
11 1] buys them from somebody. 

[12] Tower then sells the disk to you or to whomever else 

[13] and whatever rights you acquire beyond the naked ownership of 

[14] the project, the hunk of plastic that constitutes the disk is 

[15] a function of the Copyright Act and the DMCA and whatever 

[16] other legislation is appropriate. 

[17] MR. GARBUS: Excuse me. 

[18] THE COURT: It's not a factual matter. 

[19] (Pause) 

[20] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[21] Q: What is the public position that Warner has taken with 
[22] respect to whether or not one can make copies of DVDs for 
[23] personal use? 

[24] MR GOLD: Your Honor, I think that's been asked and 
[25] answered already. 



Page 489 

[1] THE COURT: I don't remember it. Overruled. 
[2] A: You can't make a copy. 

[3] Q: Now, if I buy a DVD in New York, can I play it — a Warner 

[4] DVD in New York, can I play it in France? 

[5] MR GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the question. 

[6] THE COURT: Why is it relevant, Mr. Garbus? 

[7] MR. GARBUS: The answer is "I can't." 

[8] THE COURT: The answer is you can't explain why? 

[9] MR. GARBUS: No, the answer is "I cannot." In other 
[10] words, I can buy a Warner disk on a licensed player for a 
[11] licensed player. If that licensed player is in Europe rather 
[12] than in the United States, I can't play the disk, and that's 
[13] the fact I was trying to get at. 

[14] So, Warner Brothers is selling me a disk because of 

[15] the licensing agreements that I can only use in certain areas. 

[16] THE COURT: Well, look, Mr. Gold — 

[17] MR GOLD: Again, your Honor, it's irrelevant to this 

[18] case. 

[19] THE COURT: I have heard no explanation to the 

[20] relevance and I also think, though I know what you are driving 

[21] at, Mr. Garbus, that you haven't even stated it accurately. 

[22] Certainly as I understand the facts, if you have a 

[23] DVD player that you purchased here in the United States and a 

[24] DVD that you purchased here in the United States and you took 

[25] both to France and plugged the transformer into the wall to 

Page 490 

[1] convert the current so that your DVD player didn't explode 
[2] when you plugged it in, you could play it. 
[3] MR. GARBUS: That's correct. 

[4] THE COURT: I still haven't heard an explanation of 
[5] why this is relevant. 

[6] MR. GARBUS: It seems to me, again, it goes to the 
[7] antitrust issue. But I'll move on. 
[8] THE COURT: Go ahead. 

[9] Q: I tliink that the DMCA has a section on authorization and 
[10] what authorization means and the question then is when Warner 
[11] "authorizes" the buyer of its DVDs, the question is what are 
[12] the limitations in that authorization? 
[13] You may say that's just a question of law. I think 
[14] we can all agree fundamentally as to the facts and let me just 
[15] state what I understand the facts to be. The facts as I 
[16] understand it — let me ask you a question. This a better way 
[17] to do it: 

[18] Q: Ms. King. theDVD-CCA consortium requires every maker of a 
[19] DVD player that wants to play a DVD to sign a license, is that 
[20] right? 

[21] A: That's correct. 

[22] MR GOLD: Your Honor, again, this is part of the very 

[23] same irrelevant line of questioning. 

[24] THE COURT: Overruled, for the moment. 

[25] Q: And the CSS licensing technologist includes, does it not, 



Page 487 - Page 490 (22) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





Page 491 




Pones /1Q^ 
r dye tJ70 


It] 


restrictions on what features a DVD player can offer to the 


Ml 


respect to water marking, that although there has been some 


[2] 


public? 


[2] 


delay due to a conflict between two different proposals, that 


[3] 


A: To the best of my recollection, that's right. 




UiCy IC WUllvlJlg \Jll UlCliuIlig UlC piUpUottlS ovJ WC C<lii Have «t 




Q: Is there anything so that without that CSS licensing 


\A\ 
l 4 J 


WtlLCI IJl<tllVlJlg XJlULlWll, *Ul(.l 1 III IlOl ltlllULilttl Willi UlC 5UIU5 


[5] 


technology, you couldn't have a DVD player that plays a DVD 


[ 5 3 


<ji any Lipgrauc lur v^oo. 1 Know inere were uiocusmuiij, ulh i 


[6] 


that can do tilings that the license would not otherwise 


[6] 


don't know the results. 


[7] 


restrict it to? 


[71 


Q: Now, you say with respect to digital transmission, they're 


[S] 


MR. GOLD: Objection as to form, your Honor. 


[8] 


very close. Can you tell me what that means? 


[9] 


THE COURT: I don't understand the question, Mr. 


rcn 
l y J 


r\m in liic v/jo lit c Hoc, li you louix *x v^oo iicciioc, you wcich l 




Garbus. Sustained as to form. 


[10] 


allowed to transmit the materials out of a digital port until 


[11] 


Q: So that if you had a DVD player that could play a DVD, it 


[11] 


there was proper copy protection. There is a group called 5C; 


[12] 


is the license that restricts what that DVD player can do, is 


[12] 


"5C" stands for five companies, the leader of which — the 


113] 


that right? 


[13] 


icaucra Kji wiiicii are U5ivi anu rinacni — noi iijivi, calusc iiic — 


114] 


MR GOLD: Your Honor, again, I object as to form and 


[14] 


Intel and Hitachi. I've got this confused — let me go back. 


Ti CI 




[15] 


In 5C, Intel, Ma tsushita, Toshiba, Sony and one other 


i ,u j 


THE COURT: Sustained as to form, at least. 


[16] 


company, I don't remember, have come up with a protocol and 


i 1 'J 


O* I mf* nut if this wiv If von nrpvionslv <*fHd iirwl von 


[17] 


they have been negotiating with the motion picture industry on 


[18] 


correct me if I'm wrong, that the CSS License and technology 


[18] 


how this would work lor some time and I believe they're 


[19] 


includes restrictions on what features a DVD player can offer 


[19] 


getting very close. 




to th** r>nH1i<" is fh;if riohf? 

IV 1.1 IV- UUUUVj lO Hit* I J lglll. 


[20] 


THE COURT: Close to what? 


1211 


A: "Well, that's putting it a bit more broadly. It has 


[21] 


THE WITNESS: To finalizing an agreement so that the 




certain — 


[22] 


digital ports can be opened up with a certain encryption 


[233 


MR. GARBUS: We are getting into areas now that 


[23] 


protection so that materials can be transmitted from one 


[24] 


concern me because of the confidential nature of the document 


[24] 


digital media to another. 


[25] 


and I'm not sure — 


[25] 


Q: And when you say, "very close, " we talked about this month 




Pane 492 

i aye? t5t 




Page 494 


[1] 


THE COURT: Look, the document speaks for itself. 


[1] 


or next month? 


121 


Whatever it says, it says. 


[2] 


A: well, it s always hard to predict these things. I know 


i°j 


Q' So that 


[3] 


there was a meeting last week and they've been working on this 


[4] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I believe that Mr. Garbus 


[4] 


for an extremely long time, probably a year. 


T51 


nPfds to wnit for the wilnpss to finish snntina Kpforp hp 


[5] 


THE COURT: This meeting is not at Camp David; is it? 


i°j 


miikps o snpp c\\ tihont whv hp'*; 'l^lono thf nup <fir»n 
uiaivcj *\ ju\,\.v.ji awui wiiy jil o t-i O ivu ic wit. vliitollv^Jl. 


[6] 


THE WITNESS: It's equally as contentious, I think. 


[7] 


THE COURT: Look, Mr. Gold that's not helpful. Thank 


[7] 


I know that it's a drawn-out process. My estimate would be 




you. Next question? 


[8] 


within the next couple of months, it will be finalized. 


T91 


Q: So with Time Warner music vou can make nersonnl ronies 


[9] 


we have real time frames to do this in, because if 




of the music but with resnect toTimp Wirner movies von 


[10] 


this protocol is going to have significant meaning to this 




rannAl mnkp r>pr«*oriMl rnnips thit rioht? 

*-«UUlVv 11 1*4 IV \- JL/V.I JUJ lai k-VVlV»J, XO 111(11 lli^Jll. 


[11] 


industry, we need to have it in things in set top boxes and I 


[12] 


A: Time Warner — 


[12] 


don't pretend to be an expert in this area, but I know the 




MR GO! n* If T miv T oHiPft tf\ frhit mifcH/^n Kproiic/» 
•win UV/LL/. 11 1 llltty, 1 vvjtCl lv U1UL CJIICjLIvJi L>CC*IUI>C 


[13] 


studios and the MPAA have been working with the FCC and with 


ri4i 


I bf*IifW it chills for :i Ipp;i1 Ponpln<;ion 


[14] 


the cable industry to try to make an overall protocol where 


[15] 


THE COURT: Objection sustained. 


[15] 


our content is protected. 


[16] 


it s aiso argumentative, mere are two uifierent 


[16] 


So, I know there are real time frames that are set by 


[17] 


statutes, two different technologies. 


[17] 


the Federal Government in this regard as well. 


[18] 


Q: Do vou know — is Warner Brothers as a result of the DpCS^ 


[18] 


Q: So, the only thing — the technology is there, is that 


MQ1 


mukino nnv nlan<; to *»tr»n r/^l^o cino T^VT^c? 


[19] 


right? 


[20] 


A: Not that I know of. 


[20] 


A: JThe technology, I believe, is there; yes. 


[21] 


Q: And with respect to the various security systems and 


[21] 


Q: And the technology has been there for how long? 


[22] 


encryption systems, do you have any idea when they can be put 


[22] 


A: I don't know. 


[23] 


into place? 


[23] 


Q: A year? 


[24] 


A: It's my understanding currently that with respect to 


[24] 


A: They're constantly working on the technology and I 


125] digital transmission protocols that wc are very close. With 


[25] wouldn't want to speculate. I don't know. 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



Min-U-Script® 



(23) Page 491 - Page 494 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 495 

[1] Q: For the reason that it hasn't yet become operative is 

12] because the business negotiations surrounding that technology 

13] have not yet concluded, is that right? 

[4] A: That's right. It's a very complicated negotiation. 

[5] Q: And what would be the effect of that digital technology 

[6] with respect to the security for DVDs? 

[7] A: Well, it would protect our product when it's transmitted 
[8] from one digital domain to another. 

19] Q: And had there been an agreement between the parties on the 
{10] economics, this could have been done a year ago, is that 
[11] right? 

[12] MR. GOLD: I object to the question. 

113] A: Excuse me. It has nothing — 

[14] MR. GOLD: I object to the question, your Honor; 

[15] calling for speculation. 

[16] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[17] Q: Do you have — have you ever seen any documents concerning 

[18] tills digital technology and when it first became operative? 

[19] A: I don't remember seeing those documents. I came into 

[20] these negotiations, again — I left the multi-industry 

[21] negotiations. They were turned over to Dean Marks a couple of 

[22] years ago, who works for Time Warner. 

123] I started participating again in an effort to speed 

[24] up the process around October or November of last year. So, I 

[25] have been there on an as-needed basis since then. 



[1] 



Q: So, as I understand it, and if I'm wrong, correct me 
[2] because I'm less technical than you are, that this particular 
[3] technology would stop the transmission, let's say, of a movie, 
[4] a DVD movie over the Internet, is that right? 
[5] A: I don't want to characterize the technology. I just don't 
[6] know and I don't — I don't want to speculate. 
[7] Q: Let me ask you a question: Hasn't there been a technology 
[8] that has been available for a year that stops the transmission 
[9] of DeCSS deconstructed movies over the Internet? 
[10] A: I have no knowiedge. 

[1 1] MR GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the question. 
. [12] THE COURT: The witness doesn't know. 
[13] Q: Who would know at Warner Brothers? 
[14] MR GOLD: On top of that, your Honor, this is getting 
[15] to the robustness and effective issue again and I think 
116] that — 

[17] THE COURT: It goes to the threat of irreparable 
118] injury, too. 

[19] MR GOLD: What's that, sir? 

[20] THE COURT: It's going to the threat of irreparable 
[21] injury, too. 

[22] MR. GARBUS: I'd like to go to the bench on this, if 
[23] I may, so I'm not saying it before the public. 
[24] THE COURT: No. Go ahead. 
[25] MR. GARBUS: Pardon me? 



[1] 
[2] 



Page 497 

THE COURT: Say what you have to say. 
MR. GARBUS: It also shows that a year ago, they knew 
[3] of the problem. They could have stopped it, and that they 
[4] couldn't work out their business arrangements with respect to 
[5] it. 

[6] THE COURT: That may be your contention, but it 
[7] certainly doesn't show that. 

[8] MR. GARBUS: That's what we are going to try and 
[9] prove and that's what we tried to prove through discovery 
[10] which we never finished. 

[11] THE COURT: I'm not rising to that fish on the 
[12] surface either. 

[13] Q: Now, Ms. King, tell me who at Warner Brothers knows about 

[14] this digital technology? 

[15) MR GOLD: Which digital technology? 

[16] Q: How about a Mr. Cookson, do you know that name? 

[17] A: Yes, I do. 

[18] Q: Has Mr. Cookson ever been deposed in this case, to your 



Page 496 



[19] knowledge? 

[20] A: I don't believe he has. 
[21] Q: Who is Mr. Cookson? 

[22] A: He's an executive vice-president and chief technology 

[23] officer for Warner Brothers. 
| [24] Q: And where is he located? 
'[25] A: In Burbank, California. 

; Page 498 

| [1] Q: And is he the person at Warner Brothers who would be most 
| [2] familiar with this digital transmission technology? 
| [3] A: Yes. 

| [4] Q: How long — and what is his background? 
[5] A: He's an engineer. 
[6] Q: How long has he been working on it? 
[7] MR GOLD: Your Honor, if I may object to this line of 
[8] questioning about depositions and what they've been able to 
[9] take. 

[10] They never asked for the deposition of this 

[11] gentleman, although they knew his name and title for a long 

[12] time, they never asked. 

[13] THE COURT: O.K. 

[14] Q: Are there any documents, to your knowledge, at Warner 
[15] Brothers that deal with the digital transmission technology? 
[16] MR GOLD: I object to the form of the question, your 
[i7] Honor. 

[18] THE COURT: Look, Mr. < ■ ^rbus, what's the difference? 
[19] One of the points you have spent a good deal of time trying to 
[20] make is that CSS was only as good as whatever period of time 
[21] it would take somebody to crack it. Presumably that is true 
[22] of this technology, just like the Japanese naval codes in the 
[23] war, with all due respect to my colleague, just like our own 
[24] codes that other people are reading. Life is that. Nothing 
[25] is perfect. 



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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





Page 499 




Page 501 


[1] 


MR. GARBUS: I can only deal with this case and in 


[1] 


is to get into the whole question of proof about — and we 


[2] 


tills case, I believe the evidence is clear that they could 


[2] 


were not permitted, and I won't go back into discovery, but we 


13] 


have stopped if they had wanted without changing — I won't 


f31 


have not done that. We have not shown that the only reason 


[4] 


argue it because it's obvious — and that goes to the question 


F41 


that there is any possibility of any future economic harm, 


[5] 


of harm and it goes to the other legal questions. 


f51 


assuming DeCSS does everything that they say it does, they 


[6] 


THE COURT: Look, if I understand you correctly, the 


f61 


phosp not to nut into nlapp tpphnolopv that pxistpd a vear 


R] 


net of your position is that people are free, notwithstanding 


m 
i' j 


aeo 


[8] 


an act of Congress, to circumvent technological measures 


ffti 


Von mflv finH that irrplpvant I think T ' m pnfitlpd 

IvU 111*1 Y 111 111 111**1 U1C1CVU.HI. 1 11 LLI Jl 111 V^l 1UUVU 


[9] 


because there's always another technological measure that 


rcn 


to opt into it opttino 

IW iiC I. AllLVy It, 11 11 111 


[10] 


could be used with wliich the particular mode of circumvention 


L' U J 


THF COURT* Yon hnvp oottpn into it and T think what 

1 1 IL. V^Y^ KJ II !• 1ULI lltl\\, liVyllCll Li 1 Ivy 1L tlJ lvl 1 LJ Lll 1JV vv 11*11 


[11] 


doesn't work ad infinitum. 


M 11 
l' 'J 


you have established through this witness is that she doesn't 


112] 


MR. GARBUS: That's not my argument. 


HOI 




[13] 


THE COURT: Well, I think it is. 




MR ttARRU*V WpII thpn wp opt into thp othpr issups 

1 vi ii • unnuuwi wen, l J 1 v. 1 1 vv v_ liCl XJitvJ nic wiiiv_i ijjuv^j 


[14] 


MR. GARBUS: It's too intellectual for me. I'm only 


[14] 


.lIJVJlll dllU 1 VJvJJl I W«tlll l\J JJLll 111*11 Ull U1C U1LJ1C 11U W, L»Ul 11 


[15] 


dealing with this particular case. 




i c -i n icciip fr\r m** whprp -i rp- \x/itnf : *<<f a <s whn tnnw i n c\ how 

lo *tll lcJ^LIC l\Jl 1 11C, W11C1C «il C 11 IC Wl 11 ICSjCO VVllvJ ICllOW *tJ IVJ 11U W 


[16] 


THE COURT: Well, sir, it is this case. It goes to 


I 1 6] 


uo wc gci mat prooif 


[17] 


the question of the relevance in tliis lawsuit of whether there 


f 171 


Th'it i<; in i<oiP T think for 'inntlipr timf* inH thit 

1 lldl lO till loollC, 1 L1LU1K, IKJI *4.1 ICL1 1C1 LI I Ilk. *U 111*41 


[18] 


were other protective means available to them. It is, as I 


[18] 


gocb ujlk io boiiie oi me oilier ib>ijcs wc ii*ivc uccii ui3Lii3Mjij4. 


[19] 


see the statute, no defense to a charge of circumventing a 


[19] 


\Y7r» It ' i x 7 ^» npir/^r i^/^/^ce tr\ fl"»'if i ri fr\<~ ni'i i i An 'Hipa; p'in ploini 
WC lltlVC 11CVC1 JltlU »tCCC5a LU IJlal 11 LI Ul Hid. llOl 1 . 1IICV Call C1<11111 




means of protection, No. 1, that there may be another means of 


[20] 


that we never sought it. I don't think we have to go through 


F211 

V- 'J 


protection available. 


[21] 


that whole thing again either. 


122] 


MR. GARBUS: I think, and I don't know that this is 


[22] 


(Continued on next page) 


[23] 


the time for that debate, and I tliink I'd rather not get into 


[23] 




[24] 


it, but I tliink there is an appropriate response which we 


[24] 




[25] 


should make at an appropriate time, but I tliink for now, 


[25] 






Page 500 




i ctyy out 


[1] 


unless you preclude me. I would like to prove that a year ago 


[1] 


THE COURT: Do you have another cjuestion lor the 


[2] 


they were — the industry was perfectly capable of stopping 


[2] 


witness? 


[3] 


any damage from this particular type of circumvention. 


[3] 


RAD f^ADRIIQ' T An 
mn. uAHDUo. 1 OO. 


[4] 


And I'm not now dealing with whether or not the 


t 4 ] 


i nc wUn i . i ui ii, piease. 


[5] 


ultimate issue about whether this is an appropriate 


[5] 


DI IVln. uMHDUo. 


[6] 


circumvention or inappropriate, because I tliink that you get 


[6] 


Q: Now, prior to the DVD-CCA, were there other entities 


[7] 


into all of the balancing issues that are involved in the 


[7] 


lbbuiiig iiccnacor 


[8] 


First Amendment and other issues. 


[8] 


m. lviaiauoiiiui lbbiiccj iiccn!>c3 ior *t long imic uciuic uic 


[9] 


I don't think, and I think the Court disagrees with 


[9] 


DVD-CCA, an interim license. 


[10] 


me, that you can take this and totally — and I'm not 


[10] 


Q: Why was Matsushita issuing licenses? 




suggesting the Court has done that — not look at the other 


[11] 


A: Because they were the developer of CSS. 




values. In Sony v. Betamax and Sega v. Accolade, and the 


[12] 


U: 1 ney owned CSS. 


[13] 


Connectix case, everybody recognizes that there is some degree 


[13] 


A: Yes, along with Toshiba. 


[14] 


of infringement. And in Sony v. Betamax, the movies industry 


[14] 


Q: Now, do you know when Matshushita first developed CSS? 


[15] 


said, there would be a great deal of infringement. And they 


[15] 


A: No. 


[16] 


were fundamentally correct, nonetheless the Court came to the 


[16] 


Q: Do you know, did they do it in collaboration with Toshiba 


[17] 


conclusion that it did. 


[17] or independently? 


[18] 


Now, one can interpret — 


[18] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object on the basis of 


[19] 


THE COURT: Under a totalh different statute. 


[19] 


relevance. 


[20] 


MR. GAR3US: Yes. So, one can suggest that the DMCA, 


[20] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


[21] 


and that is a legitimate argument which I disagree with, has 


[21] 


Q: Was the DVD-CCA permitted — 


[22] 


rendered Betamax, Sega, Connectix not applicable to these 


[22] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object on relevance. 


K J J 


tpphnolofrip *; thit i< an :ironmpnt irwl tlvit ic in ironm^nf I 
CI 11 L^Jiyjgis^ j j iiitii 10 till til t^inuci ii diiii 111*11 la till til tllllllClIl I 


[23] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


[24] 


think that we are prepared to deal with. 


[24] 


MR. GARBUS: May I make an offer of proof? 


[25] 


But I tliink that what I would like to be able to do 


[25] 


THE COURT: You can make the offer of proof in open 



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Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 503 

[1] court. 

[2] MR. GARBUS: That the DVD-CCA was created by the 

[3] people who owned CSS to create a monopoly with respect to the 

14] movie companies and the hardware manufacturers with respect to 

[5] the use of DVDs, that this entire monopoly was created so that 

[6] you could not make copies as Sony Betamax said you could of 

[7] tilings that you had purchased at the store by yourself for 

[8] your personal use. 

[9] THE COURT: You think the witness is going to testify 
[10] to that, right, Mr. Garbus? 
11 1] MR. GARBUS: No, I don't think so. 
[12] THE COURT: An offer of proof, Mr. Garbus, is not 
[13] supposed to be counsel's imagination of what counsel alleges. 
[14] It is supposed to be what you think the witness would answer 
[15] if permitted to answer. 
[16] MR. GARBUS: I understand. 
[17] THE COURT: So, we will do it tliis way. I sustain 
[18] the objection, and I will give you five minutes to make your 
[19] offer of proof through the witness. Let me know when you are 
[20] done with the offer of proof. 

[21] MR. GARBUS: I believe that this witness will be 
[22] called upon to testify — 

[23] THE COURT: Make it through the witness. Ask her. 

[24] We will not have speculation about what she would say. We 

[25] will get her answers, I'll rule it out, and if after hearing 

Page 504 

11] your answers I think it's relevant, I will reverse my ruling. 

[2] MR. GARBUS: I'm not sure where we are. 

[3] THE COURT: Go ahead and ask your question. You have 

[4] five minutes to develop this point through this witness, the 

[5] point on which I've sustained the objection. 

[6] MR. GARBUS: Can I hear my question again. 

[7] (Record read) 

[8] THE COURT: Go ahead and answer, Ms. King. 

[9] A: I don't really know. I know when Matsushita brought CSS 
[10] to the multi-industry negotiations, that they said it had been 
[11] developed by them in collaboration with Toshiba. That's all I 
[12] know. 

[13] Q: When you say the multi-industry negotiations? 
[14] A: They brought it to the Copy Protection Technical Working 
[15] Group which was open to all parties who wanted to come. 
[16] Q: And these were the consumer electronics groups and the 
[17] motion picture industry? 

[18] A: And the computer industry and anyone else who wanted to 
[19] attend, like the Home Recording Rights Coalition. I mean lots 
[20] of parties were there. 

[21] Q: And as a result of that, the DVD-CCA or its predecessor 
[22] was created. 
[23j A: Yes. 

[24j Q: And the purpose of that was to have that organization 
[25] issue the licenses for anybody who would make movies that 



Page 505 

[I] would use the encryption system, work as replicators, who 
[2] would press out the DVD itself, or have the hardware that 
[3] would show the DVD. Is that right? 

[4] A: If you want to get the keys to decrypt our encrypted 
[5] movies, you had to get a license to get those keys and play by 
[6] the rules. It's as simple as that. 
[7] Q: Tell me what the rules are. 
[8] THE COURT: They are in the license, Mr. Garbus. We 
[9] have been through that. 
[10] MR. GARBUS: Okay. 

[11] Q: Are there any rules outside of the license? 
[12] A: Not that I know of I mean, you know, it's a complicated 
[13] process. In order to play a DVD you have to comply with the 
| [14] DVD specifications so that the machines are compatible with 
[15] the disks. I mean there are lots of things you can and can't 
[16] do. It's not simple but, you know, products are manufactured 
[17] all the time that have to agree with certain standards and 
[18] certain quality standards, as well as if you want to play 
[19] movies you adhere to that standard. 
[20] Q: Isn't it also a fact that the technology has been 
[21] developed so that merely by adding a small addition to the 
[22] hardware you can play DVD movies with a different security 
[23] system? 

[24] A: I have never heard of that. 

[25] Q: Have you ever heard of any attempts to develop that, 

Page 506 

[1] namely keeping the hardware out there but just through some 
[2] small addition making it safe to play DVD movies? 
[3] A: I'm not sure I understand your question. 
[4] Q: You testified before that to pull back the DVD movies or 
[5] to go and change the encryption system would render useless 
[6] all the hardware that's out there, is that right? 
[7] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, is this yet not going back to 
[8] robustness? It sounds that way. 
[9] THE COURT: I don't think that's what it is actually. 
[10] A: Yes, if you put a new encryption system onto our disks and 

[II] it wasn't backwardly compatible, then you would have the 
[12] problem of the installed base of consumer electronics and 
[13] computer products that are out there, and that's a major 
[14] problem. 

[15] Q: And has there been research at Warner Brothers and the 

[16] other major studios that had to deal with that problem? 

[17] A: I know that the motion picture studios went to Matsushita 

[18] immedi ately a fter we heard about DeCSS and said would you work 

[19] on something to help us upgrade this that would not obsolete 

[20] the players. I know they went ahead and tried to do that. I 

[21] don't know the results of those discussions at this time. I 

[22] know that it was difficult. It wasn't an easy thing to do 

[23] without obsoleting the players that were already out there. 

[24] Q: Isn't it a fact — and you tell me if I'm wrong — that 

[25] Matsushita and Toshiba came back to the movie companies with a 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 507 

[1] solution to that problem back in May? 
[2] THE COURT: May of what year? 
[3] MR. GARBUS: This year. 
[4] THE COURT: 2000? 
[5] MR. GARBUS: Yes. 

[6] A: I don't remember. I mean they may have. I'm not saying 

[7] they didn't. I know they were asked to, so it's very likely 

[8] they could have, but I don't know what that solution is, and I 

[9] wasn't attending all of those meetings. 
[10] Q: Who at Warner Brothers would know that solution? 
[1 1] A: I'm not sure anyone would know the solution, but the 

[12] persons that attend those meetings on a regular basis are 

[13] Chris Cookson from — I mean we put our most senior technology 

[14] experts on these committees. That's how important Warner 

[15] thinks this is. Chris Cookson and Dean Marks, who is a senior 

[16] intellectual property counsel for Time Warner, these are 

[17] senior people. Warner takes this quite seriously. 
[18] MR. GARBUS: Now, I don't think we have to get into 

[19] here again questions of discovery, documents or depositions of 

[20] these witnesses. I presume we can do that at some time before 

[21] the bench rather than get into that hassle now. 
[22] THE COURT: Okay. Are at the end of your offer of 

[23] prooi? 

[24] MR. GARBUS: Excuse me, no. 
[25] Q: Who owns CSS at the moment? 



Page 508 

[1] A: I don't know if it's Matsushita or DVD-CCA. I just don't 

[2] know. But it's either a combination of Matsushita and Toshiba 

[3] or they have transferred it to the DVD-CCA, and I don't know 

[4] the answer to that question. 

[5] Q: Can you tell me why it was transferred? 

[6] A: No. 

[7] Q: Do you know if the movie industry paid any price for that 
[8] transfer? 

[9] MR. GOLD: I object to the form of that question. 
[10] THE COURT: There is nothing wrong with the form. 
[11] Overruled. 
[12] A: No, I don't know. 

[13] Q: Do you know if any of the consumer electronics hardware 
[14] manufacturers like Panasonic or Pioneer paid for the price of 
[15] that transfer? 

[16] THE COURT: First of all, the witness said she didn't 

[17] know whether there was a transfer, so how could she answer 

[18] what somebody paid or didn't pay for the transfer that she 

[19] didn't know whether it occurred? 

[20] Q: Who would know that at Warner Brothers? 

[21] A: I don't know that anybody would know that at Warner 

[22] Brothers. I think you would have to ask Matsusliita. 

[23] Q: Now, DVD-CCA at the present time is a conglomeration of 

[24] companies, is that right? 

[25] A: There is a board that consists of some companies, yes. 



Page 509 

[1] Q: Which companies are they? 

[2] A: I know that Time Warner is now sitting on that board along 
[3] with 20th Century Fox.That's the representatives from the 
[4] motion picture industry. I believe it's Matsushita and 
[5] Toshiba from the consumer eJectroaics industry, and I believe 
[6] it's Intel and Compaq from the computer industry, but I'm not 
[7] sure about the IT companies. 

[8] Q: So let me just see if I can understand. So, some of the 
[9] people that own CSS are the hardware manufacturers and some of 
[10] them are representatives of the movie studios. 
[1 1] THE COURT: She just got finished — objection is 
[12] sustained. You keep going over and over and over, and the 
[13] answer that she has given over and over and over is that she 
[14] didn't know. 

[15] Q: Who would know that at Warner Brothers? 

[16] A: I just answered that question. I don't know that anyone 

[17] would know that at Warner Brothers. 

[18] Q: Does any of the income from the licensing to let's say a 
[19] hardware player go back to Warner Brothers? 
[20] A: No. 

[21] Q: Where does the income go? 

[22] A: Let me just describe the income. The income is a fee for 
[23] the administration of the licensing. Toshiba and Matsusliita 
[24] were kind enough to donate whatever intellectual property 7 is 
[25] contained in CSS. 



Page 510 

[1] Q: Kind enough to donate? 

[2] A: Yes, kind enough, because they could have asked for money 
[3] on a continuing royalty basis, but they didn't, so this is 
[4] basically a not-for-profit organization that runs the 
[5] licensing. 

[6] Now, they didn't do it out of the kindness of their 
[7] hearts. They wanted to sell consumer electronics products, so 
[8] they wanted the motion picture studios to be comfortable 
[9] having an encryption scheme, but they didn't charge for the 

[10] intellectual property like other patent holders, etc. might 

[11] charge. So, it's just an administration fee that they charge. 

[12] Q: Is this a patent or a copyright on CSS? 

[13] A: I don't know. Whatever intellectual property is in CSS, 

[14] there is not a running royalty on it. 

[15] Q: So, as I understand it — and tell me if Vm wrong — and, 
[16] Judge, if I'm misstating it — Warner Brothers then, which 
[17] make the movies — and I don't know, did you say that Warner 
[18] Brothers sit on the board of DVD-CCA? 
[19] A: Yes, Time Wan k ~ I believe. 
[20] Q: So, Warner Brothers — 
[21] A: Well, maybe — one or the other. 

[22] Q: — Warner Brothers or one of the Time Warner companies — 
[23] A: Yes. 

[24] Q: — sits on DVD-CCA? 
[25] A: Yes, this is very recent. 



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Trial Volume 3 
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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C REIMERDES, et al 



Page 511 

[1] Q: And it is DVD-CCA that decides who gets the licenses let's 
[2] say to the hardware, is that right? 

[3] A: As long as you provide a robust implementation, anyone can 
[4] take a license to make software or hardware for decrypting 
[5] CSS. 

[6] Q: And you pay the money? 

[7] A: Any party — 

[8] Q: And you pay the money? 

[9] A: That's correct, but the money is just an administration 
[10] fee to provide for this licensing so everyone can get it. I 
[1 1] mean we have Chinese hardware companies and Chinese software 
[12] companies, and we have companies from all over the world that 
[13] have applied and received licenses from DVD-CCA. 
[14] Q: Has anybody ever been turned down? 
[15] A: I don't know that anyone has ever been turned down. 
[16] Q: Has anybody at Linux ever been turned down? 
[17] A: I don't know. 

[18] Q: Has anybody ever made an application but wanted to get 
[19] permission or the license without paying the requested fee? 
[20] A: I don't know. 

[21] Q: Have there been any attempts, to your knowledge — and if 
[22] you know nothing about it, I don't want to pursue this line of 
[23] inquiry — any attempts to your knowledge to negotiate those 
[24] fees, or is it an absolute set fee, the same one in every 
[25] contract? 



Page 512 

[1] A: 1 don't know. 

[2] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I hope that it's usefnl.Tliey 

[3] took the deposition of Mr. Hoy, who runs DVD-CCA, for a day 

[4] and a half, and they have all of this information. 

[5] MR. GARBUS: And the information — well, 1 will 

[6] withdraw that. 

[7] Q: Have there been any lawsuits that you know of brought by 
[8] the motion picture studios, the MPA or anyone concerning Power 
[9] Rippers? 

[10] THE COURT: Is this still part of your offer of proof 

[11] or are we now done with that? 

[12] MR. GARBUS: I lost track. 

[13] THE COURT: We will deem it over. 

[14] MR. GARBUS: Unless I can re-think it and remember 

[15] it. 

[16] Q: Do you know what rippers do, Power Rippers? 

[17] A: Just in general, just in general terms, that they by brute 

[18] force try to rip up an encrypted product. 

[19] Q: After you sat in court for several days and you heard Mr. 

[20] Shamos, Mr. Schumann, do you know whether or not the MPA 

[21] brought any other lawsuits, or Warner brought any other 

[22] lawsuits concerning any of these other utilities? 

[23] A: Not that I'm aware of. 

[24] Q: And to your knowledge, do any of those other utilities 
[25] have any relationship to Linux? 



Page 513 



[1] 



MR. GOLD: Your Honor, this seems to be some defense 



[2] I've never heard about, selective enforcement. 
[3] THE COURT: What's the objection? 
[4] MR. GOLD: Relevance. 
[5] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[6] Q: Have you had any conversations with anyone at Warner 
[7] Brothers concerning the Linux system? 
[8] A: No. 

[9] Q: Do you know anything about the Linux system? 
[10] A: No, just that it's an open architecture system. 
[11] Q: Have you ever heard anything about the LiViD group before 
[12] you came today? 

[13] A: Before I came to court this week? 
[14] Q: Yes. 
![15] A: No. 

[16] Q: Would you happen to know whether the MPAA since let's say 

[17] January 1 has been keeping copies of the LiViD logs? 

[18] A: I have no idea. 

[19] Q: Have you never seen them? 

[20] A: No. 

[21] Q: And do you have any knowledge as you sit here today as to 
[22] the growth of Linux in the market? 
[23] , A: No. 

[24] THE COURT: How much more do you have for this 
[25] witness, Mr. Garbus? 



Page 514 

MR. GARBUS: I think I'm about a minute away or less. 
THE COURT: Okay. 
MR. GARBUS: Excuse me. 
(Pause) 

Q: Now, you said that you were a member of the Copyright 



[1] 

[2] 
[3] 
[4] 
[5] 

[6] Protection Technical Working Group, is that right? 

[7] A: I attended quite a few of their meetings at the beginning. 

[8] There was no membership. 

[9] THE COURT: Was the name Copyright Protection or Copy 
[10] Protection? 

[1 1] THE WITNESS: Copy Protection. 

[12] MR. GARBUS: Technical Working Group. 

[13] Q: I show you document AVI. 

[14] MR. SIMS: AUI? 

[15] MR. GARBUS: It looks like AVI. 

[16] Q: Do you remember discussions at the Copy Protection 
[17] Technical Working Group about the weakness of the CSS system? 
[18] A: I remember they discussed the strength of copy protection 
[19] systems at the CPTWG, yes. I don't remember a discussion 
[20] about weakness. I remember a discussion about is it strong, 
[21] is it weak, you know. They were analyzing the encryption. 
[22] Q: Look at the second page of that document, which is dated 
[23] January 31, 1997. Were you ever told that a college student 
[24] had broken CSS back in January of 1997? 
[25] A: I don't remember being told that, no. 



Page 511 - Page 514 (28) 



Min-U-Script® SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





i ciy t? i o 




Page 517 


[1] 


Q: Did you ever see that document before? 


[1] 


set up when? 


[2] 


A* Nil-* 
M. 1NO. 


[2] 


A: I don't remember the exact dates. '96 probably. 


[3] 


W . y UU tUlCllU IHC v_/tjpy Jrl OICC llOIl lCV_JLILH-rtl vv KJL JVll l*£ VJi vjujp 


[3] 


Q: And it was set up to deal with among other things DVD and 


[4] 


m*»/=»t"i r» n if A, r /^i i n r^m^ml^f^i* l^or^l/" in To ni iiru A 1 r 
11 ICC. Ill 11 yOU LiUl 1 Clllt,lllUCl, LMCK. Ill J*llllltll y Z> 1 • 


[4] 


DVD security. 


rczi 
PJ 


A" 1 rlon'f rpmpmbpr 

r\m A I 1 V 1 i 1 V- 1 1 i is \~ i . 


[5] 


A: ics. 


[6] 


• T*S/-v -»»/-vii rprn^mri^i* or»v r ^ 1 1 <; / — l lcrtri/'Anc In onv /^f flip tTIPPtino? 
Vat. L'O yDU 1 Clllv_lIJL>d ally LiIoCUdoIDIId Lll ally \Jl 111C 11JCCI.U lfc^ 


[6] 


Q: And do you know when CSS or the 40 bit encryption code 


I' J 


about the CSS having been broken in 1997? 


[7] 


that later came to be put on DVDs was first released or made 


[8] 


A* NTr» 

M. iNU. 


[8] 


public? 


[9] 


vjI. as you iook at iiie uocumeni, uoes mai reircsn your 


[9] 


A: Well, 1 don't think it has ever been made public. That's 


[10] 


1 CCvyJLlCv. llvJJ 1, UIC L1LI1U J_7*ll <ti^l <l|JJ 1 


[10] 


why we have the licensing entity. So, when they were finished 


[11] 


A* IMz-k 
A. 1NO. 


[11] 


and ready to license it, I don't know. I do know it was 


[12] 


vji. — ttL/\JLii <uiy k.*jiivci jitinjiio u i*i i wv,ic n<tu ai i j ic VvU^ J »y 


[12] 


before we released the product. 


[13] 


Protection 1 echnical Working Group meeting about the breaking 


[13] 


Q: So how many months, if you can tell me, if you know, 


[14] 


Ol Cbbr 


[14] 


before the product was released was information about the 


[15] 


MR. GOLD: Which paragrapJi are you referring the 


[15] 


encryption code released? 


[16] 


witness to? 


[16] 


THE COURT: If it was. 


[17] 


1 Hb Wl 1 Nbob: 1 m looking at paragrapn t>. l nave 


[17] 


MR. GARBUS: If it was. 


[18] 


never seen this before, but it seems like they are talking 


[18] 


A: I don't think information about the — I mean they made an 


[19] 


about the encryption. 


[19] 


announcement that they were licensing, I guess. I really 


[20] 


THE COURT: No, the question to you is only whether 


[20] 


don't know. I just know that Matsushita started licensing the 


[21] 


looking at this refreshes your recollection as to whether you 


[21] 


product, that our replicator got a license and that we went 


[22] 


were involved or had any knowledge of conversations in the 


[22] 


ahead fairly quickly into the marketplace, because we had 


[23] 


Copy Protection Technical Working Group about the breaking of 


[23] 


wanted to launch even sooner, so we were happy we had the 


[24] 


CSS in 1997. 


[24] 


encryption and ready to go. 


[25] 


THE WITNESS: I don't remember any such knowledge. I 


[25] 


Q : Do you know whether or not anybody at Warner Brothers or 




Page 516 




Page 518 


[1] 


don't remember that. 


[1] 


xMPAA knew that even before they had released their product the 


[2] 


Q: Look at the fourth page of that document headed 


[2] 


code had been broken? 


[3] 


"California Student Unscrambles Internet Code," when is the 


[3] 


A: I don't believe — 


[4] 


first time that you learned — 


[4] 


MR. GOLD: 1 object to the question, your Honor. 


[5] 


MR. GOLD: I don't see this on what is marked on page 


[5] 


THE COURT: Objection sustained. It assumes facts as 


[6] 


4 here, but you may be on another page. 


[6] 


to which there is no evidence. There is nothing before me to 


[7] 


TUP r*C\\ IDT* r\rt tl-i/a. fifth nono 

i nt LfUUri i . yjn tne iirtn page. 


[7] 


suggest that it was cracked at that point. 


[8] 


MR. GOLD: Thank you, your Honor. 


[8] 


Q: Look at this document now, Exhibit AVI. Is that the form 


[9] 


1 Hb Wl I Ncbo: Okay. 


[9] 


of documents, executive summaries that are issued by the Copy 


[10] 


THE COURT: The page 4 with the number 5 on it. 


[10] 


Protection Technical Working Group meeting? 


111] 


A: This is not a hack of CSS. 


[11] 


A: They don't issue summaries. 


[12] 


1 Mb uuuh 1 . You nave told us earlier, aid you not, 


[12] 


Q: You have never seen anything like this before? 


[13] 


several times that CSS encrypted disks were first put into the 


[13] 


A: No. This looks to me not to — well, I don't know where 


[14] 


marketplace by Warner in March of '97, right? 


[14] 


it came from. 


[15] 


THE WITNESS: i nat s correct. 


[15] 


Q: What if I tell you it came from the DVD-CCA files. 


[16] 


1 Hb LrOUH I : And is that accurate: 


[16] 


A: Well it may have come from the DVD-CCA files but the Copy 


[17] 


IHbWIINbbo: Yes. 


[17] 


Protection Technical Working Group didn't produce documents 


[18] 


THE COURT: And this memorandum is dated two months 


[18] 


like the one attached to this. 


[19] 


before the product was in the market, is that right? 


[19] 


THE COURT: I thought the document from the DVD-CCA 


[20] 


TUP W1TMPQQ- llvit'c t-JoIif 

i riL vvi 1 iicoo. i nat s ngnt. 


[20] 


all were stamped DVD-CCA. Is that not correct? 


[21] 


THE COURT: Let's move on. 


[21] 


MR. SIMS: This came from Sony, your Honor. 


[22] 


Q: When for the first time did you learn that CSS was broken? 


[22] 


THE WITNESS: That makes sense. 


[23] 


A: To the best of my recollection I learned about it in 


[23] 


THE COURT: Okay. Let me make tliis simple, Mr. 


[24] October of '99. 


[24] 


Garbus.You are assuming, I take it based on your questions, 


[25] 


Q : Now, the Copyright Protection Technical Working Group was 


[25] 


that the reference in this document to a 40 bit common key 



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Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





Danfl Ci Q 
rdyy O 1 v7 




Page 521 


[1] 


encryption system is CSS. 


[1] 


A: Yes. 


[2] 


ivirt. uMnDuo. ico. 


[2] 


Q: Addressing your attention now to the ninth page, which is 


[3] 


1 lit- vwUfi 1 • VV 11CLHC1 11 1*1 L 13 LI LIC Ul llijl lo Uy IIVJ 


[3] 


designated "WB01462." And the fist sentence under 2.2.2. Do 


C41 

r*J 


means clear, and the circumstances suggest — though don't 


[4] 


you see that sentence? 


[5] 


prove — otherwise. 


[5] 


A: Yes. 


[6] 


1NOW, 1 LIIltigLIlC 111*11 111C1C Ullt^IlL DC 3<J11JC lClCVtlllL 


[6] 


Q: Who is Merdan? 


U) 


proof on whetlier they are the same, and even if they are not 


m 


A: I believe Merdan was an outside technology consul ting firm 


[8] 


lllC 3<tll JC Wll*ll IHC 1C1CVJ1H_C Ul LllC Cl<lWl\JJl£, \Jl tX- J \J Ult i\.cy 


[8] 


that some of the motion picture companies, not including mine, 


[9] 


would be to the security of CSS, but I don't think a lawyer 


[9] 


had do an analysis of CSS, retained to do an analysis of CSS. 


[10] 


wjio uocs uusiiicss tiiitijLi a 101 a iikjvic Miiuiu is a liKciy 


[10] 


Q: Now, in addition to Merdan, was Macrovision also at some 




CiillUlUtiLC ILJ UC <1L/1C LU gl\ C LI 1*1 1 1SJLI1U VJl LCSLllllUliy. 


[11] 


time asked to do an analysis of DeCSS? 


[12] 


Vjf. v>*lll y\JlI LCI 1 lllC W l i\J *IL LllC iVll I\J\ lllli^Jll L.JC *LI-/1C LVJ ££1» C 11 JC 


[12] 


A: I don't remember that. 


[13] 


that testimony? 


[13] 


Q: Do you know who Macrovision is? 


[14] 


A: I don't know — 


[14] 


A: Yes, I do. 


[15] 


MR. GOLD: I object to the question. I'm not sure 


[15] 


Q: Who are they? 


[16] 


what testimony. 


[16] 


A: They make analog protection, analog copy protection, and 


[17] 


THE COURT: Yes, neither am I. Sustained. 


[17] 


they participated a lot in the Copy Protection Technical 


[18] 


Q: Can you tell me whether or not there is anyone at Warner 


[18] 


Working Group. 


[19] 


Brothers who has any information about the significance of the 


[19] 


Q: And is Macrovision utilized on DVDs? 


[20] 


January break of a 40 bit encryption code to DVD and CSS? 


[20] 


A: Yes, it is. 


K 'J 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the relevance of 


[21] 


U: Howr 


[22] 


that question. 


[22] 


A: It's used to protect analog content through two systems, 


[23] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


[23] 


one called Automatic Gain Control, AGC, and something called 


[24] 


Look, Mr. Garbus, you have access to whatever experts 


[24] 


color burst, I believe. 


[25] 


you want in the area of encryption, and if you have some 


[25] 


Q: Have vou ever seen a Macrovision report dated November 1 5 




Page 520 




Page 522 


[1) 


evidence to call on this, call it. 


[1] 


saying that the encryption system is weak, useless and, 


[2] 


MR. GARBUS: Let me tell you what I don t have. I 


[2] 


however, will not be of any use to hackers in making illegal 


[3] 


don't have the documents. 


[3] 


copies? 


[4] 


THE COURT: You don t know if there are documents. 


[4] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, is that a quote from the 


[5] 


MK. uAnDub: mat s true, ana l never nad tne 


[5] 


article? 


[6] 


chance — 


[6] 


THE COURT: I don't know what it is. 


[7] 


THE COURT: And, furthermore, I don't know that you 


[7] 


MR. GOLD: I object to the form of the question. 


[8] 


don't have whatever documents that there are. 


[8] 


THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 


[9] 


We have already I believe once this morning had an 


[9] 


Q: Looking at 2.2.2, it says the content scrambling scheme is 


[10] 


incident — or yesterday — in which you claimed that you 


[10] 


relatively unsophisticated. And this was furnished to Warner 


[11] 


didn't have the documents, and it was proved you did. I 


[11] 


Home Video back in April 30, 1997, and it goes from you to 


[12] 


believe it had to do with the drafts of the documents that I 


[12] 


Mr. Cookson. 


[13] 


believe Mr. Schumann was questioned about yesterday, or maybe 


[13] 


Did you and Mr. Cookson have any discussion about 


[14] 


this witness.And after the whole Sturm und Drang that you 


[14] 


that sentence? 


[15] 


didn't have the documents, it turned out they had been 


[15] 


A: I can't recall whether we discussed this particular 


[16] 


produced to you. 


[16] 


sentence. 


[17] 


Now, I am not faulting you. I know trial lawyers are 


[17] 


Q : Did you have any discu ssion wi th him abou t the weakness of 


[18] 


busy people and there arc i«* of documents, but I just can't 


[18] 


CSS> 


[19] 


accept as a given these assertions like that. 


[19] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, clearly this goes to 


[20] 


Q: Let me show you a document from Warner Home Video 


[20] 


effectiveness, and I think that you blocked that area of 


[21] 


addressed to you. 


[21] 


inquiry, that you ruled on that area of inquiry yesterday. 


[22] 


MR. GARBUS: May I approach the bench? 


[22] 


THE COURT: What about that, Mr. Garbus? 


[23] 


THE COURT: Yes. 


[23] 


MR. GARBUS: If you want, I will get away from it. I 


[24] 


Q: Document SF, have you ever seen that document before? 


[24] 


think the issue — 


[25] It's from you. 


[25] 


THE COURT: That's not the point, Mr. Garbus.The 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



v. 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 523 

[1] point is to respond to the objection. 

[2] MR. GARBUS: I think the objection is incorrect. I 

13] think it's relevant whether or not the movie studios knew back 

14] in April of 1997 that DeCSS was unsophisticated and could be 



Page 525 

[1] Garbus? At five to 1 2 you told me a minute or two. It's now 
[2] almost 12:30. 

[3] MR. GARBUS: I think beyond lunch. 

[4] Your Honor, I move into evidence the Warner Home 



[6] 
R] 



1113 



[5] easily broken. 

THE COURT: It's relevant for what purpose? 
MR. GARBUS: Pardon me, I said DeCSS. I think it's 
[8] relevant in this case to show that they knew that tliis CSS 
[9] could not control access to the product that they had. 
THE COURT: Objection sustained. 
MR. GARBUS: It also goes to the question I think of 
[12] harm, namely if we show that they knew in 1997 that this 
113] encryption system was to be what I understand it, then if they 
114] suffered harm knowing that, then I think that's relevant to 
[15] the question of the harm that they suffered. 
[16] THE COURT: So, in other words, if somebody put a 
[17] crummy lock on their door and a burglar goes through it, there 
[18] is no crime. Is that your point? 

MR. GARBUS: That's not what I'm saying. 
THE COURT: Okay. Objection sustained. 
MR. GARBUS: Not what I'm saying. A burglar is not 



[19] 
[20] 
121] 



[22] dealing with the DxMCA or copyright law. 



[23] 



THE COURT: No, the burglar is dealing witli a penal 
[24] law that says in substance you can't circumvent controls that 
[25] limit access to your apartment, Mr. Garbus. 



Page 524 

11] MR. GARBUS: Shall I then stop asking questions? 
[2] THE COURT: Mr. Garbus, I'm ruling on them one at a 
[3] time. 

[4j Q: D ire cting your at ten tion t o t he co nc lusions, let me read 

[5] the conclusions to you. 

16] THE COURT: She can read them herself. 

[7] Q: Read the conclusions under 4 and then afterwards the 

[8] recommendations. 

[9] Did you have any discussion with Mr. Cookson about 
[10] those conclusions or recommendations? 
[iij A: I had a discussion — 
[12] MR. GOLD: Objection, your Honor. 
[13] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[14] Q: Do you know if any changes were ever made in the CSS 
[15] system after you received these recommendations and 
[16] conclusions from Merdan? 

[17] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I think we are on the same 
[18] subject. 

[19] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[20] Q: I show you Defendants' Exhibit BX. 

[21] THE COURT: How much longer do you expect to be with 

[22] the witness? 

[23] MR. GARBUS: I think a little wliiJe. I think that it 
[24] may well be that — well, I think a little while. 
[25] THE COURT: Can you define "a little while," Mr. 



[5] Video document dated April 30, 1997. 

[6] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object to that on the 

[7] grounds of — 

[8] THE COURT: Which exhibit, Mr. Garbus? 
[9] MR. GARBUS: SF. 

[10] THE COURT: Do you include within your offer the 

[11] attachments? 

[12] MR. GARBUS: Yes. 

[13] THE COURT: Mr. Gold? 

[14] MR. GOLD: I object on relevance grounds and on 

[15] hearsay grounds. 

[16] THE COURT: Objection sustained as to both. 

[17] The hearsay ruling applies to pages WB01 637 through 

[18] 01644, and absent a showing that Ms. Z willing of page 01636 is 

[19] a Warner employee, it extends to that as well. 

[20] MR. GARBUS: Your Honor, you are ahead of me as 

[21] usual. I don't see — oh, I see. Excuse me. 

[22] Q: I show you — 

[23] MR. SIMS: I'm sorry. We don't have the document. 

[24] DX? 

[25] MR. GARBUS: BX. 



Page 526 

[1] THE COURT: B as in boy. 

[2] MR. GARBUS: May I approach the bench? 

[3] THE COURT: Yes. 

Q: Does the QPx^Q4Uuiye 7 Jvls^Xin4^ on 



[5] it? 

[6] THE COURT: No, that's the one you gave me. 

[7] MR. GARBUS: Let me give you a clean copy. 

[8] Q: Do you recaUL Ms. King, that this document was shown to 

[9] you at your deposition and that it was a memo to you? Do you 
[10] see your name on the third line of the document? 
[11] A: Yes, but I don't remember this from the deposition. I 
[12] thought it was a different article. 

[13] Q: It was marked at your deposition as K8 for identification. 
[14] Do you remember seeing it? Perhaps Mr. Gold and I can 
[15] stipulate. 

[16] THE COURT: I don't see what the relevance of that 
[17] particular point is. Why don't you just ask your next 
[18] question. 

[19] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, f lu's says it was marked on 

[20] July 10, and I don't think there was a deposition on July 10. 

[21] THE COURT: I don't care. I don't care. I assume 

[22] Mr. Garbus has questions to ask her about the document other 

[23] than who scribbled what on it in early July. 

[24] Q: Did you know that the people who were creating Linux — 

[25] pardon me — the people who were creating DeCSS were Linux 



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Min-U-Script® 



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Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





Page 527 




Page 529 


[1] 


programmers? 


[n 

L 'J 


Q: And what does that say? 


12] 


MR. GOLD: Can I have that question read back? 


[2] 


A: "This is a relatively rational take. See particularly the 


[3] 


(Record read) 


T31 


last four paragraphs." 


14] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object.There is no 


[4] 


Q: Do you recall looking at the last four paragraphs? 


[5] 


foundation for that. 


iyj 


A: I read a lot of articles when CSS was first hacked, so I 


16] 


THE COURT: Sustained as to form. Do you want to 


[6] 


probably read this as well. 


[7] 


rephrase it, counsel? 


L' J 


MR. GARBUS: Your Honor, I can belabor the witness, 


[8] 


Q: Were you ever told or did you ever see a document that 


T81 


but rather than do that, and to save time, this is an adoption 


[9] 


said that Linux programmers were working on DeCSS in order to 


l y J 


hv i AX^nrnpr Rrothfr*; pmnlnvpp of hie int^t-orf t'lt ion of tlif* 


110] 


create the DeCSS so that they could use DVDs on their 


h m 
l lu J 


mitpri^il of thf* irti^lf* T mow* it info f*\7 \ t \ t~i c^f* 

llJ«-lld liXL KJl lilt ill L1V_1C I lUL'VC 11 LIllW CVlUCIlV^C 


[11] 


machines? 


M 11 
L 1 1 J 


MR GOLD' Your Honor I ohiert on the prounds of 


112] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object on the grounds of 


[12] 


fi/^i f civ TTIti t com/ 3 t"l"i t r» n ic t-'i t"«/~vtril /"la^cn ' t mol/p it" tr\i£* /\r 

iic<ii5«iy. iJKii oumciiuiig id r«tiioii<ii ciocmi i i ii<ikc ii ii tic oi 


[13] 


relevance. 


[13] 




[14] 


THE COURT: The question of whether the witness was 


[14] 


ivin. uAnDuo. i oner it ror wnat it s worm, ior wnac 


[15] 


told that by anyone I tliink is not relevant unless it was 


m m 
i'°J 


it snvs nnrl for tii<s intf rnrpt itinn 
ii otiyo <« i ivj lvji i no ii iiv,i L/i v_ ttiiiwi i . 


[16] 


somebody at Time Warner. 


[16] 


ivin. uulu. iicaibtiy, your i ion or. 


[17] 


Q: Let me ask you if you were asked and answered the 


I 17 ] 


inc. wiin i . vjivcji inc. ujijhcu naiurc oi ivir. 0010 j 


[18] 


following question at your deposition at page 228. 


M Al 


obif*f*tion I 'im onino to rf*{^pi\rf* flip f=*ntirf rlnnimpnt THp 


[191 


THE COURT: Just read it, please, Mr. Garbus. 


[19] 


portion that says "Here is a relatively rational take, see 


[20] 


Q: It's line 8. 


rom 
l^uj 


rvi rf if^l l l'i rlv thf* loct foiir ri'inonnlK " ic rf*f*f*ivf*{~\ \x/itHont 
JJtll tlCltlUl 1 y LJlv. JUIoL HJLll y)iA\ «1£>I t(UJ 1^, 13 ICLCIVCU WILIUJUI 


[21] 


"Q. Before you spend a long time reading it, let me 


[21] 


restriction. The portion that consists of a retyping or a 


[22] 


just ask you, have you seen this before? 


[22] 


copy of what appears to have been a newspaper or other media 


[23] 


"A. Yes, I believe I have." 


[23] 


report is received for the tact that it was said and for 


[24] 


Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or 


[24] 


whatever inference ought to be drawn from this statement, 


[25] 


not — 


[25] 


particularly the last four paragraphs are a rational take. In 




Page 528 




Dana 


[1] 


A: I would have to look at the deposition, because I just 


n] 


other words, the media report is not received for its truth 


[2] 


don't remember this particular article. 


L<l 


hut it is rf^ffivpH to chfH lioht on \x/hit IVIr Ostrnvpr mpant 


[3] 


Q: Well, I'm reading to you. 


[3] 


mn. vjvjlu. iour rionor, 1 aiso wouia ukc to oujeci 10 


[4] 


A: From the deposition, I understand that. But is that what 


I 4 ] 


ii on uic giounub iiKti ii rciaicb io iiic rouu5»uici>3. 


f51 


I was reading, tins article? 


[5] 


1 nt UUUH I : wnat about that, Mr. Garbus: 


[6] 


Q: Yes. 


[6] 


iviri. uAnouo. l m sorry. 


[7] 


A: Okay. 


m 
I'J 


TnF Pfl 1 IDT' T-T/^ ic nrvTir AKiprtinn r\T\ nrAiinrlc of 

int wun i . nc is J i(j w (jujccilii^ on giiJLiiiLi& ui 


[8] 


Q: Now, where did you get this article from? 


[8] 


relevance. Do you have anything new to say on that? 




A: Well, obviously — I got it — 


[9] 


MH. laAHbub: oure. Ine sentences, I would nave to 


[10] 


iwR. GOLD: Your Honor, is there anything in the 


[10] 


read the sentences aloud to show why I think it's relevant. 


[11] 


record about this witness getting this article? I don't think 


[11] 


It would be the first sentence. It talks about — the article 


[12] 


so. 


[12] 


talks about who made DeCSS, which group made it. It talks 


[13] 


THE COURT: Well, it's addressed to her among others. 


[13] 


about why it took so long to DeCSS, because people have known 


M41 


THE WITNESS: But I don't know that I got it. I just 


[14] 


about for so long. It talks about the potential ramifications 


[15] 


don't know if they showed this to me at deposition. Lewis 


[15] 


of the DVD industry and it says the impact probably — I don't 


[16] 


Osterover showed this to me. 


[16] 


want to read it. I think it's obvious. 


[17] 


Q: Who is see? 


1 1 'J 


THF f^OI IRT* I im ooJno to rprpivp it on th** litnitfH 

• I ■■— vwUn 1 • 1 dill gULIlg l\J 1CLC1VC 11 UIC 111111 ICU 


[18] 


A: He is our senior president of new media at Warner Home 


118] 


basts I indicated. To the extent it goes to the robustness 


[19] 


Video. 


[19] 


issue, you know my view. 


[20] 


Q: Did you and Mr. Ostrover have any conversation about this 


[20] 


HAD ^ ADDI IP. T1,/,«lr ,7/mi 

mh. bAHbUb: l hank you. 


[21] 


article? 


ron 
K'i 


(Defendants' Exhibit BX received in evidence) 


[22] 


A: No. 


[22] 


MR. GARBUS: May I approach the bench? 


[23] 


Q: Is there any comment on the top of this document from 


[23] 


THE COURT: Yes. 


[24j Mr. Ostrover to you about the article? 


[24] 


Q: I show you Defendants' Exhibit AUA. I don't know if it's 


[25] 


A: There is a comment to all of us from him. 


[25] 


defendants. 



Page 527 - Page 530 (32) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





F QUO \J\J 1 




Page 533 


Ml 


THF POIIPT- Whit'<; Hip niit»«tinn? 
i nu Ouun i . vvjiai o uic qucMioiir 


[1] 


Q: Is it your testimony, Ms. King, that you never heard in 


1<I 


vx . nave yuii tvci seen uiio v.il^v^liiijcjil uciuit. 


[2] 1997 anyone witliin the motion picture industry say that the 


[3] 


Ai No, to tlie best of my knowledge, no. 


[3] CSS system was inadequate for protection? 


[4] 


ljo you recall meetings wiuiin warner Drouicrs baying mat 


[4] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, same objection. 


[5] 


a AO bit encryption system is not the best we can do at this 


[5] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


I 6 ] 


time? 


[6] 


MR. GARBUS: Your Honor, if we could take our lunch 


\7) 


m. iml>, i rciijciiiucr liiccimgj wjici c l ncai u n win u ic cvjiupuici 


[7] break, I think I might be able to finish up after lunch in 


[8] 


lnuusiry ano me consumer electronics incius>iry uiai uii 


l°J 


»tL^i.^m id 1 1 ljjj 1 u iv. c>. 


[9] 


encryption was the only one allowed to be exported under the 


[9] 


1 nc LrUUn 1 . vjKay z ciock. 


[10] 


U.S. export laws. 


[10] 


(Luncheon recess) 


[11] 


Q: Did anybody tell you that you could not apply for a 


[11] 


(Continued on next page) 


[12] 


license to get permission for a 56, a 58, a 65 encryption key? 


[12] 




113] 


A: I don't remember. 


[13] 




[14] 


MR. GOLD: I object to this line on the grounds of 


[14] 




[15] 


relevance, which it is still in robustness and effectiveness. 


[15] 




[16] 


THE COURT: Is that right, Mr. Garbus? 


[16] 




[17] 


MR. GARBUS: I don't think so. It seems to me what 


[17] 




[18] 


this shows is that — and it happens to be the law, and I am 


[18] 




[19] 


prepared to go up there to talk about it — do you want me to 


[19] 




[20] 


continue? 


[20] 




[21] 


THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Garbus, continue. 


[21] 




[22] 


MR. GARBUS: Oh, excuse me. 


[22] 




[23] 


Q: Now, you are a lawyer, Ms. King. Isn't it a fact — 


[23] 




[24] 


THE COURT: No, I wanted you to continue on the 


[24] 




[25] 


objection. Mr. Gold objected. He said it goes to the 


[25] 






rjr>/-iA coo 

rage 532 




Page 534 


11] 


robustness issue. I asked you what your response was, and I 


[1] 


1 nt UUUH 1 : Joeiore we start, is Mr. loung in the 


[2] 


don't know what your response is. 


[2] 


courtroom? 


[3] 


ivin. uahduo. it goes to tne raci mat tney Knew in 


[3] 


I have had a request from a John Young at Cryptome 


[4] 


'97 that the 40 bit encryption system was weak.They knew 


[4] 


for an approval of a live feed of proceedings from the court 


[5] 


that. They could have gone to the government to get a 


[5] 


reporter who's doing the realtime for the purpose of receiving 


[6] 


license, easily obtainable, so that they could have built a 


[6] 


the transcript as it's generated to post on the Internet. 


U) 


56, 58 encryption system. 


[7] 


I wanted to inform him, and if anybody is talking to 


[8] 


l nt LfUUH 1 : Sustained. 


[8] 


him, you can tell him that the matter is under consideration, 


[9] 


Q: Now, tell me when you had this conversation about a 40 bit 


[9] 


but it involves a whole series of complex issues that involve 


[10] 


encryption being as large as you could have before you went 


[10] 


tlie court reporters' rights for being compensated for their 


[11J 


and sought an export license? 


[11] 


work, the fact that the realtime transcript in this case, 


[12] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the relevance. 


[12] 


because of the technical nature of much of the time leaves a 


[13] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


[13] 


great deal to be desired, inasmuch as neither party has yet 


[14] 


Q: Ms. King, let me show you — 


[14] 


provided the court reporter with a glossary, at least so I 


[15] 


MR. GARBUS: May I approach the bench? 


[15] 


have been told in the last five minutes, so the draft 


[16] 


tlic r*r\i idt. 

1 rib LrUUH 1 : Yes. 


[16] 


transcript is not what it would be if that had occurred. 


[17] 


Q: — Exhibit ADT. I direct your attention to the bottom 


[17] 


And thirdly, I need technical advice on the extent to 


[18] 


right-hand corner, Fox. Is Fox one of the people who made 


[18] 


which if at all connecting any outside computer by direct 


[19] 




M9j 


cable to the court reporters* equipment potentially gives 


[20] 


a. wen, zuui v^enrury rox 1$. 


[20] 


access to my own equipment. 


[21] 


Q: Have you ever seen any report that was given to Fox that 


[21] 


And, lastly, there are U.S. judicial conference rules 


[22] 


points out that the CSS standard was totally inadequate for 


[22] 


that proliibit electronic connections between computers that 


[23] 


protection? 


[23] 


are on the Judiciary's network and anybody outside the 


124] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object on relevance grounds. 


[24] 


judiciary and mine is on the judiciary's network. 


[25] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


[25] 


I will look into these matters, but it isn't going to 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



Min-U-Script® 



(33) Page 531 - Page 534 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





Page 535 




Page 537 


[1] 


happen in a matter of hours. 


rn 


The thini? that's in issue here is the CSS And the 


12] 


MR. SIMS: Your Honor, just — we did provide a 


[2] 


question is, I asked the witness, is this a patent or a 


13] 


glossary yesterday morning to the male court reporter, and 


[3] 


copyright? I'm not exactly — I think she wasn't sure. If 




we'll try to find other copies. 


I4l 


it's a patent, it's been published, so there's nothing unusual 


[5] 


THE COURT: All right. Mr. Garbus, you may proceed. 


rcri 
IPJ 


nbont knowino the striiefiire of f^SS 


{6J 


MR. GARBUS: May we approach the bench? 


rfii 
l b J 


I'm iiist roisino c\ lot of onpstions that should 


[7] 


THE COURT: Yes. 


I'J 


heeome nnnnrent iis a result of this morninp's nnestionin£? 


18] 


(At the sidebar) 


l°J 


T-favinp snid thnt let's nil po home 

iiavuic .j 4-\ l v* niti i, Jv. i j tin tivy iiv/niv*. 


19] 


MR. GARBUS: This came up in a way shortly before 


rQi 


THE COURT* Well I will vote for that I don't know 


110] 


lunch and maybe I can just get the Court's guidance on this. 


rim 


whnt the miestion is Mr f^iirhiis 

WJlal LilV. lO, 1*11. VJ«U UUO. 


{11] 


1 see the statute here and then I see the licensing 


M 11 

I 1 'J 


MR GARBUS - Here's the miestion" If I can build a 

■win* Mninwwwi x iv~i v. j niv~ vi uivovivyi 1. 11 l vttii ivliuivj ** 


[12] 


arrangements here. And I see what the licensing arrangements 


[12] 


u\xj piayo pjiyMcauy capauic ui pi«i^Liig a w«ujiti jdivjuici j 


i 1 °J 


do and the rights that they allegedly give or don't give. 


[13] 


disk, wliich I've lawfully purchased without signing the 


[14] 


I don't see the DMCA and the licensing arrangements 


[14] 


licciiac wiui xJ v l^-v^v^/v, is ii Warner s pooiiiuii/puiiv-y uuti 1 aiij 


f151 


as one, seeing them as two separate tilings. I see the DMCA as 


[15] 


nprtYiit"tp/l t s\ nloiJ Itr 

pcriuiLicu iu pi«y ii: 


l 'vi 


a boarder in the licensing arrangements and one of the tilings 


[16] 


TUC POI 1PT- An/I \1r C r\\A if h/> -icL-j«#1 th'if 

■ nc v«fVjuri i . /v i i (j xVir. vjoici, 11 lie jskcu 111*11 


l 1 'J 


that the witness testified to was that the licensing 


[17] 


question — 


rim 


arrangements cuts down on the rights that certain people would 


[18] 


MR. GOLD: I would object. I would object to the 


ri9i 


otherwise have. 


[19] 


lcicvancy vji 11. 


F201 


I would like to understand that further. I think it 


[20] 


1 nc ifUUn 1 . ajiu 1 vvlu susuiin uie ODjecuon. 




has legal significance and I was trying to pose questions to 


[21] 


So, you can ask it, ii you want and I will sustain 


[22] 


the witness at the end of the morning that basically deal with 


[22] 


the objection. 


[23] 


this. Now, I don't want to do that, if you feel that that's 


[23] 


MR. GARBUS: I'm certainly not going to ask it. 


[24] 


not an area that I should pursue. 


[24] 


Let me go through another whole bunch of questions. 


[253 


For example, I would ask a question: If I can build 


[25] 


THE COURT: Let's not do that. I'm not here to give 




Page 536 






Ml 
I 'J 


i DVD ntaver nhvsicullv eanable of nlavini? a "Warner Brother's 


[1] 


an advisory opinion about what happens. If you want to ask 


T21 


disk which I have purchased without signing the license with 


[2] 


me witness quesuons, asK me wimess questions, anu ici » 


m 


DVD-CCA. is it Warner's policy or position that I am permitted 


[3] 


get it done with. 


F41 
IrJ 


to nlav it' 

IA-/ YJXtAJ lit 


[4] 


You promised me almost two hours ago you had a minute 


pj 


She answered before, I tliink, that anything that you 


[5] 


to go. I realize a lot of that has been lunch. 


TBI 


buy from Warner Brothers and can play on any disk on any 


[6] 


(In open court) 


I'J 


V> q rrfw^i re r>l;iver 


[7] 


THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Garbus. 




Now, if that's so, then is it is W^arner brother's 


[8] 


nu HAD r»ADD! IC 

dt MK. uAKUUb: 




position that you can even play it on a player which does not 


[9] 


Q: One thing I wasn't clear with respect to CSS. I asked you 


moi 


have a license from the DVD-CCA. In other words, I'm trying 


[10] 


whether it was a patent or a copyright. Do you recall what it 


n n 
i 1 'J 


to deal with the question of the relationship between the 


[11] 


ISf 


. l'^J 


licensing statute and the DMCA to see exactly who is 


[12] 


A: No, it may be both. I don't know. 


[13] 


prohibiting what is happening here. I tliink one of the words 


[13] 


Q: 11 it's a patent, it will be published, is that right? 


T141 


that you've been focusing on appropriately is "authorized" and 


[14] 


1 Mb tuuH 1 : rlease, Mr. Garbus, tins isn t a patent 


1151 


"unauthorized. w 


[15] 


lawyer. The Patent Code of the United States provides for 


1161 


THE COURT: I don't think I have focused on that in 


[16] 


what it has to be. 


[17] 


the course of the trial so far at all. 


[17] 


Q: To your knowledge, based on your experience at Warner 


[18] 


MR. GARBUS: O.K. I guess it seems to me that as I 


[18] 


Brothers what is it that requires a . a umer to only view a 


[19] 


understand the licensing structure here, it is die licensing 


[19] 


DVD on a player licensed by UVU-GGA: 


[20] 


structure that authorizes or doesn't authorize, it brings 


[20] 


MR. GOLD: I object, your Honor, on relevance 


[21] 


about this lawsuit. 


[21] 


grounds. 


[22] 


As I understand it, though I'm not clear, I tliink the 


[22] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


P3J 


plaintiffs are suing pursuant to their licensing arrangements 


[23] 


Q: To your knowledge, if a consumer sees a piece of hardware 


124] against this defendant and the question is whether or not 


[24] 


that plays a DVD, how is the consumer to tell whether that's 


(25] because those are the rights. I presume, that they have. 


[25] an authorized player or not? 



Page 535 - Page 538 (34) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 539 

[1] A: 1 don't know what the word "authorized" means. 

[2] Q: The statute uses the word "authorized." That's what I'm 

13] trying to find out. 

[4] THE COURT: Maybe you ought to read the statute again 
15] and see in what connection it uses it because I don't think 
16] it's in this one. 

[7] Q: Do you know what the term "compliant equipment" means? 

18] A: I don't think there is a standard definition for 

[9] "compliant equipment." 
[10] Q: Tell me your understanding of it. 
[1 1] A: I think in the context of the CSS licensing, it would be 
[12] equipment that has taken a license that is compliant with the 
[13] license terms. 

[14] Q: So, a compliant piece of equipment under the statute would 

[15] be one that would be authorized by the DVD-CCA, is that right? 

[16] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object. 

[17] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[18] MR. GARBUS: Excuse me for a moment. 

[19] (Pause) 

[20] MR. GARBUS: Your Honor, I see the word "authority" 

[21] in the statute, and I said "authorization," but the statute, 

[22] as I see it at Section A, and I'm prepared to go to the bench 

123] for this, if it's necessary. 

[24] THE COURT: Which subpart of A? 

[25] MR. GARBUS: It says, "To circumvent the 



Page 540 

[1] technological measure." 

[2] THE COURT: Winch subpart of A? 

[3] MR. GARBUS: (a)(1), I think; (2)(a) — (3)(a). 

[4] THE COURT: (3)(a)? 

[5] MR. GARBUS: Yes. 

[6] THE COURT: 1 2(a)(3)(a)? There is none. 

[7] MR. GARBUS: 1 201(a); walking my way through this is 

[8] very difficult. 

[9] THE COURT: I know it's not an easy statute. It 
[10] takes some attention. 
[11] MR. GARBUS: 1201(a). 
[12] THE COURT: Are you talking about (a)(3)(b)? 
[13] MR. GARBUS: I'm talking about — yes, (3)(a) and 
[14] (b). Let me show you what I'm referring to. 
[15] THE COURT: I can read (a)(3)(a) and (b). I have it 
[16] in front of me. 

[17] MR. GARBUS: It starts "to circumvent." 
[18] THE COURT: Yes. 

[19] MR. GARBUS: And then (b) talks about without the 
[20] authority. 

[21] THE COURT: Yes. Do you have a question? 

[22] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[23] Q: So, there is an authorization factored in the statute, and 

[24] I'm trying to determine with respect to that authorization, 

[25} the extent to which it is granted or not granted and the 



Page 541 

[1] relationship between the statute and tins licensing structure. 

[2] THE COURT: WelJ, you read the statute. You read the 

[3] license. That's what you have. 

[4] MR. GARBUS: Except that the statute and the license 

[5] are not coextensive. 

[6] THE COURT: So, you compare the two and you analyze 

[7] the respects in which they differ and you make your argument 

[8] about what the legal effect of that is. 

[9] MR. GARBUS: And that's what I'm trying to ask 

[10] questions about. 

[11] THE COURT: I know. But it's a legal issue. 

[12] What's the question? 

[13] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[14] Q: Do you have knowledge of what Warner's position is with 

[15] respect to these licenses about what the authority a buyer of 

[16] a DVD has with respect to the use of that DVD? 

[17] MR GOLD: Objection, your Honor. 

[18] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[19] What you are obviously trying to get at, Mr. Garbus, 

[20] is whether Warner or any of the other studios has authorized 

[21] consumer purchases of their DVDs to circumvent the copy 

[22] protection of CSS. 

[23] Now, if you want to ask that question, why don't you 

[24] ask it. 

[25] BY MR. GARBUS: 



Page 542 

[1] Q: I'll ask that question of the witness. 
[2] A: No. 

[3] THE COURT: Now, maybe we can move on. 

[4] Q: So, as you understand it — and this is the last question 

[5] and then I'm through for the day with respect to tins 

[6] witness — a purchaser of a DVD cannot make a copy of a DVD 

[7] for his own personal use or to lend — is that right? 

[8] A: That's right. 

[9] Q : And the purchaser of a DVD cannot lend the copy of the DVD 
[10] to a friend who does not have an authorized, licensed player? 
[1 1] MR GOLD: Your Honor, it's beginning to sound like — 
[12] he's asking for a legal opinion, I think. 
[13] THE COURT: Well, I don't even see what the relevance 
[14] of the question is. Can't lend it? I mean, is there really 
[15] some suggestion that there's an issue in this case as to 
[1 6] whether somebody who owns a DVD can lend it to somebody else 
[17] without knowing whether they have a player? 
[18] Suppose they lend it to somebody who didn't have 
[19] electricity? 

[20] MR. GARBUS: To play it. I thought the question was 
[21] to play it on a player that does not have a license from the 
[22] DVD-CCA. 

[23] THE COURT: Well, that wasn't the question. Do you 
[24] want to take another stab at the question? 
[25] BY MR. GARBUS: 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



Min-U-Script® 



(35) Page 539 - Page 542 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 543 

[1] Q: Is it Warner's position that the purchaser of a DVD cannot 
{2] lend the DVD to a person who has an unauthorized player so 
13] that the person who has that unauthorized player can watch the 
[4] DVD? 

[5] MR GOLD: 1 object, your Honor. 

16] THE COURT: Look, I'm going to allow the answer to 

[7] this question just to be done with it; all right. 

[8] Bear with everybody, Mr. Gold. 

[9] A: Someone who owns a DVD disk can lend it to whoever they 
[10] want, but the disks are only authorized to be played on 
{11] compliant players. 
[12] MR. GARBUS: Thank you. 
[13] THE COURT: O.K. Thank you, Mr. Garbus. 
[14] Mr. Gold? 

[15] MR GOLD: I do have several questions for the 
[16] witness, your Honor. 

[17] REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

11 B] BY MR GOLD: 

[19] Q: Ms. King, would any upgrade in the security system of the 
[20] DVD provide protection for the films that have already been 
[21] released in CSS format? 

[22] A: From what I understand, they would not. 

[23] Q: Now, turning, if I may, do you still have Exhibit RK, the 

[24] second page? 

[25] A: Exhibit? 

Page 544 

[1] THE COURT: You mean BK? 
[2] MR GOLD: Mine says "RK." 

—[8] THE COURT: RK; thank you. 

[4] A: I have it. 

[5] Q: You have it, Ma'am? 

[6] A: Yes, I do. 

[7] Q: In January of the year 2000, did you agree with the view 
[8] expressed from the article, the one about the DV code crack? 

[9] A: I certainly d idn't. 

[10] G: Specifically, if I can, I want to refer you to the part of 
111] that paragraph which relates to economic incentive. Did you 
{12] agree with the view expressed about economic incentive? 
[13] A: No, I didn't agree, however — 
[14] Q: Why not? 

[15] A: Well, I didn't agree because there is an economic 

[16] incentive to hack die product. Certainly people that want to 

[17] make money off of pirating our product would be very happy to 

[18] do so and have done so ever c :e we started releasing it 

[19] Q: Did you understand in January of 2Guu,clespite v> hat you \e 

[20] just said, that there was a good business reason for Mr. 

121] Cardwell to have expressed the view contained in that 

[22] paragraph? 

[23] A: Yes, I do. I believe I understand why he said this. 
[24] Q: And why is that? 

[25] A: Well, he was at the consumer electronics show. 



Page 545 

[1] MR. GARBUS: I object to her understanding. 
[2] THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. 

[3] Q: Did you know whether or not at Warner's in January of the 
[4] year 2000, this January, that there was a concern among 
[5] executives that people were panicking unnecessarily about the 
[6] crack of BSD? 

[7] MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of the question. 
[8] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[9] Q: Did you ever engage in any discussion with executives 
[10] where you expressed a view that it would be good for Warner's 
[11] to get some control over what was happening in the market as a 
[12] result of this crack of CSS? 

[13] MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of the question. 
[14] (A) it's leading, and it assumes facts not in evidence. 
[15] THE COURT: Rephrase it. 

[16] Q: Do you believe in January of 2000 that your public, 
[17] Warner's public, was jittery about the crack of the BSD could 
[18] lose faith in the — 

[19] MR. GARBUS: I object to the form of the question. 
[20] THE COURT: Sustained. 

[21] MR. GARBUS: If the witness hasn't been told thus far 

[22] what to answer — 

[23] THE COURT: That was unnecessary. 

[24] Anything else, Mr. Gold? 

[25] MR GOLD: Yes. 

Page 546 

[1] Q: What is your present judgment, Ms. King, about the 
[2] incentives to use DeCSS to copy and transmit Warner DVDs? 

-p] MR. GARBUS: Object to the question: 

[4] THE COURT: On what ground? 

[5] MR. GARBUS: That he's told him what to testify to 

[6] already. 

[7] THE COURT: This will be a very short trial if we 

[8] exclude the witnesses called by both parties on the theory 

[P] that each lawyer hns told them what to say. 

[10] Overruled. 

[11] THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question, please? 
[12] THE COURT: I think we could get rid of all trials in 
[13] America on that ground. 

[14] MR. GOLD: When I used that statement at lunch in a 
[15] different context, my listener said, well, will that be a bad 
[16] tiling? 

[17] THE COURT: Don't answer that, Ms. King. 

r j 3] MP. C?LD: I said. yes. 

[19] THE COURT: Come on. Is there another question? 

[20] BY MR. GOLD: 

[21] Q: What is your present judgment, Ms. King, about the 

[22] incentives to use DeCSS to copy Warner DVDs? 

[23] MR. GARBUS: I'll object to it, that there's been no 

[24] proof that DeCSS is being used to transmit any DVDs. 

[25] THE COURT: Overruled. 



Page 543 - Page 546 (36) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





Page 547 






[1] 


A: We have highly-desirable product. People want to view our 


H] 


products and their new product lines. 


[2] 


product.They want to view our new product. 


[2] 


Q: Prior to the consumer electronics show in 1990, did Warner 


[3] 


MR. GARBUS: Excuse me. May I interrupt? 


[3] 


executives mnke any decision with respect to wruit they wanted 


I*] 


Was the question "do you believe" or "what do other 


[4] 


to accomplish at that show? 


[5] 


people think"? 


[5] 


A: Yes. 


[6] 


THE COURT: The question was what her present 


[6] 


Q: What was that decision? 


[7] 


judgment was about whether incentives existed. 


[7] 


I nc LrL/uri I . we are taiiong aDout lyyu. wnat s tnat 


[8] 


MR. GARBUS: Is that based on her belief or her view 


[8] 


got to do with anything? 




as an expert? 


[9] 


iviri uulu. zuuu. i uon t know now mat nappenea. 


[10] 


THE COURT: I don't know. I didn't ask the question. 


[10] 


lis January 01 zuuu. 


[11] 


MR. GARBUS: I object to the question on the grounds 


[11] 


A: We had been attending — 


[12] 


of a lack of foundation. 


[12] 


MH. uAHbUo. J think I would object to this on the 


1131 


THE COURT: Do you want to address tiiat. Counsel? 


[13] 


grounds that it's hearsay. 


PI 41 


BY MR. GOLD: 


[14] 


THE COURT: I m going to sustain the objection on the 




O* VC^is it n.irt of vonr ioh to form iiulpmpnts _ihout nnvfhinp 


[15] 


ground that enough already, Mr. Gold. 




Hi.it rpl_ifprl to thp nrorlupt ofWnrnpr Rrothprs homp vic'lpo? 


[16] 


MR GOLD: I know what that means. Thank you, your 


L 1 ' J 


A: I do that all the time. 


[17] 


lion or. 


l lo J 


Q: And did you form judgments about the continued viability 


[18] 


THE COURT: \ou re welcome. 


h cn 
i' y J 


of CSS inH the list* of OpCSS in the ITnitpd Shitps pvpt sinpp 


[19] 


Mr. Garbus, any recross? 




you heard about the DeCSS crack? 


[20] 


MR. GARBUS: Very, very brief. 




A" \X^p 'irf» rrvn'st^inrlv pviiliiiitinc thp ^itnrilion 


[21] 


RECROSS-EXAMINATION 




Q: Can you tell us what your present judgment is about the 


[22] 


BY MR. GARBUS: 


[23] 


incentives to use DeCSS to copy and transmit Warner's DVDs? 


[23] 


Q: Isn't it a fact that since the date you first filed or the 


[24] 


A: The studios have luglily-desirable product. We not only 


[24] 


first lawsuit was filed in January in this case and the 


[25] 


have professional pirates that steal our product and transmit 


[25] 


lawsuit that was filed in California, that there are an 




Page 548 




rage oou 


rn 


it to others for a commercial gain, but we have people that 


[1] 


increased number of postings of DeCSS on the Net? 




want to take it just because they like to view it. It's 


[2] 


A: I don't know. 


T31 
i°j 


highly-desirable product, not just mine. I'm not just 


[3] 


Q: As a practical matter, hasn't the fact that these lawsuits 




snpikino fr>r mv sfiirlio 

*yyJ IwdlVlJ LiL I \ J I Illy jtUVilv/* 


[4] 


have started brought to the public's attention the fact that 




If one of the tilings we found when we started taking 


[5] 


there's DeCSS on the Net with the result that more people are 


[6] 


action against Internet Service Providers was if thev knew 


[6] 


mirroring it and more people are downloading it? 


rn 
i' j 


that this was illegal or thought it was illegal when we 


[7] 


A: I don't know. 


mi 


started saying cease and desist from posting DeCSS, they took 


[8] 


Q: Isn't it a fact that if the industry wanted to protect 


fQI 


if flown \Sfp s^iw that hfi nnf n 

JLL UU Vy 1 1 . VT V, Oil Vv LJ1AL 1 It* \J VJ V.1 1 . 


[9] 


itself from the spread of DeCSS, a public lawsuit rather than 




It's verv important that thf*re isn't nerrention that 

XL »-/ » V.A J UIIUVI I>U1LI LJ1«*L IJ IV^l V 1*311 L VJ V,l V.L VJ HVJi 1 L11£%L 


[10] 


attempting to contact individual service providers was exactiy 


i 1 'J 


von ran iiist takp thp nrodnpt and ulso thai wp Hon ' t Ioq** 


[11] 


the wrong thing to do? 


[12] 


control of the distribution of our product in the future. So, 


[12] 


A: we aid both. 


mi 


tfi<* infpntivps nrp rpiil hoth for nrofit anrl nnt for nrnfif 

4.1 IV. lllWi 1 LI ▼ \~ O (11 v JCul U\J LI 1 ivl L/l vlll 1 vl I Ivy L 1 KJx Is I KJl I L . 


[13] 


Q: So, when you went to these ISPs, did you ever ask — well, 


[141 


O" Do von know whprp Mr Cardwpll was wh<=*n hp was snpaHno to 

*M • 1/v J V/ LI IV1 ivy vv vv 1 Iv 1 V, J.T11 . v^tll V.I VV ^,11 VV iX O W 1 IV^l 1 1 W O J tl IVJLl 1 \.KJ 


[14] 


we've been through that. 


T151 
l'°J 


the press as reflected in this article? 


[15] 


MR. GARBUS: I have no further questions. 


I'vJ 


A- Yes I do 


[16] 


THE COURT: Thank you. 


117] 


Q: Where? 


[17] 


Mr. Gold? 


[18] 


A: He was in lace Vegas at the consumer electronics show. 


[18] 


MR GOLD: No further questions. 


[19] 


O: Do you know the pi i rpose of — do you know why Warner sendrs 


[19] 


THE COURT: J Ue witness is excused. 


[20] people to the consumer electronics show? 


[20] 


Thank you, Ms. King. 


[21] 


MR. GARBUS: I object. 


[21] 


inbWliNbob: lnankyou. 


[22] 


THE COURT: Sustained. 


[22] 


(Witness excused) 


[23] 


Q: What is the purpose of the consumer electronics show? 


[23] 


THE COURT: Next witness, Mr. Gold? 


[24] 


A: At the consumer electronics show, consumer electronics 


[24] 


MR GOLD: Yes, may I have a minute and a half just to 


[25] companies like, you know, Sony, Toshiba, RCA present their new 


[25] go get him? 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. Min-U-Script® (37) Page 547 Page 550 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 551 

11] (Pause) 

[2] THE COURT: Who is your next witness, Mr. Gold? 

[3] MR GOLD: Professor Franklin Fisher. 

[4] FRANKLIN M. FISHER, 

[5] called as a witness by the plaintiff 

16] having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 

[7] THE CLERK: State your name. 

[8] THE WITNESS: Franklin M. Fisher. 

[9] THE COURT: Proceed, counsel. 

110] THE WITNESS: Can I get rid of this stuff? 

11 1] THE COURT: There's an enormous pile of paper up 

112] here. 

[13] Go ahead. 

114] Q: What is your occupation? 

[15] A: I'm the Jean Berkowitz Carlton and Dennis William Carlton 

[16] professor of Economics at MIT. 

[17] Q: And how long have you been teacliing at MIT, sir? 



118] A: 40 years. 

[19] Q: Do you hold any other professional positions? 
[20] A: Yes. 

[21] Q: And what are they? 

[22] A: I'm a member of the board of the National Bureau of 
[23] Economic Research. I'm the chairman of the board of Charles 
[24] River Associates, wliich is an economics consulting firm, and I 
125] have been, still am, I have been for about the last eight 



Page 553 

[I] Q: Have you — what are your fields of specialization in 
[2] economics? 

[3] A: Well, for a long time, my principal field was 
[4] econometrics, which in this connection, it's the application 
[5] of statistical methods to economics, but I wouldn't say I left 
[6] that field, but that stopped being my principal field of 
[7] specialization some time ago. 

[8] Basically, I am a microeconomist, that is, as opposed 
[9] to macroeconomists,who are supposed to know about things like 
[10] things and unemployment and inflation. Microeconomists study 

[II] the way consumers behave, the way firms behave, the way the 
[12] price system works, the allocation of resources, the way 

[13] markets behave, and of various forms. 

[14] Within that, I have worked on various aspects of 

[15] price theory, including price indices and the general study of 

[16] how a competitive price system works and on industrial 

[17] organization which is more applied subject and in my case that 



Page 552 

[1] years t he chair o f the Middle East Wate r P roject, which i s a 
[2] project of Dutch, American, Palestinian, Israeli, Jordanian 
[3] scholars working on the economics of water in the Middle East. 
[4] Q: Which degrees did you receive? In what institutions did 
[5] you receive them from? 

[6] A: I received the B.A. summa cum laude in 1956, the M.A. in 
[7] 1957, the Ph.D. in I960, all in economics and all from 
[8] Harvard. 

[9] Q: Have you received any scholarships or other professional 



[18] is involved working very heavily in the antitrust area. 
[19] Q: Have you published, sir? 

[20] A: Yes, I am the author of approximately 16 books and 
[21] some tiling substantially over 100 articles. 
[22] Q: Have you ever testified in court before as an expert? 
[23] A: Yes, I've testified quite extensively over the last 30 
[24] years. Most recently, I was the government's principal 
[25] economic witness in the Microsoft case. 



Page 554 

-[i] Q^W ere^mijetained^y^the^rjaskauerv Rose Jkm-appen ring 

[2] for the plaintiffs — appearing for the movie studio 
[3] plaintiffs in this case? 



110] honors? 
[11] A: Yes. 

112] Q: Please name a few of the outstanding ones. 
[13] A: O.K. A long time ago, now I received the John Bates Clark 
[14] award of the American Economic Association, winch is given 
115] every other year essentially to the most-promising economists 
116] under the age of 40. 

117] I was the president in 1979 of the Econometrics 

[18] Society, which is the most prominent professional organization 

[19] specializing i.\ tlx .;s%j of quantitative r methods and 

[20] mathematics in economics. 

[21] I'm a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and 
(22] Sciences. I was once a junior Fellow of the society of 
[23] Fellows at Harvard. Let's see. I've held Ford Foundation 
[24] faculty scholarship, a National Science Foundation faculty 
125] team fellowsliip and a Guggenheim fellowship. 



[4] A: Yes, I was. 

[5] Q: And what were you retained to do, sir? 
[6] A: Well, in general terms, I was retained to give an opinion 
[7] about what economic analysis had to say about various aspects 
[8] of the case. 

[9] More specifically, I was asked to read and comment on 
[10] various declarations of experts of the defendants from the 
[1 1] point of view of economic analysis, and more important, I was 
[12] asked the question of whether — to opine on the question of 
[13] whether on the assumption that no copies were yet being made 
[14] using DeCSS, no movie copies, whether it was the case that the 
[15] movie companies had nevertheless already been injured. 
[16] Q: Could you please tell the Court the particular work and 
[17] scholarship that you relied on in giving the opinions you gave 
[13] in your declaration and r.re about to give in court, today? 
[i9] A: Well, on the one hand, I've quite heavily relied on some 
[20] of the very basic tools of economic analysis. A lot of what I 
[21] have to say is not really very difficult or complicated 
[22] material and it relies heavily on issues involved in the 
[23] theory of the consumer, a subject that I have written on and 
[24] teach every year in several courses about. 
[25] In addition, I have over the course of the last 



Page 551 - Page 554 (38) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





PagQ 555 




Page 557 


[1] 


approximately 28 years been involved in a number of cases and 


["•J 


Q: Given those assumptions, do you have an opinion as to 


[2] 


I've written some involving movies and movie distribution, 


[2] 


whether the availability of DeCSS would produce harm? 


[3] 


mostly perhaps entirely related primarily to movies and the 


[3] 


m. ies. 




television industry. 




vjc . /viiv.1 wiitti ia 11 i<i i opiiiionr 




Q: Professor, I'd like to give you several assumptions and 


[5] 


A: It's my quite strong belief that the answer to that is 


[6] 


have you accept those assumptions, and then I am going to ask 


l b J 


YC5 dllvJ ll 1*4 1 11 lit I lltllill WL/Lllvl UC^LI 1 L/Clv/lC LUpiCS WtlC 


[7] 


you a question. I'm going to ask you to assume — oh, before 


[7] 


1 f t~l 1 1 1 1"\7 fnonp 

Uv-Liiauy mauc. 


rsi 


I start that. 


[8] 


Q: And what is the basis for that conclusion, sir? 


l y J 


DiH von rf*z\(] nnv of thp nunf rs in this casp? 

k^s I v I y \y L« J, V_ tl VI iiiiy \y 1 uiv. uupvi j 1.11 villi? vujv* 


[9] 


A: Well, the movie companies as the proprietors of the 




Ai Yes. 


[10] 


intellectual property involved here plan in various ways how 


L' 'J 


VJK • VVJl_Hw.ll UJ 1 V, C? . 


[11] 


to exploit that property and those plans are forward looking 


f121 
i 1 '-J 


A: Well, I read various of the declarations of defendant's 


[12] 


and I could describe them in somewhat more detail, ii you 


f 1 31 


experts and then I've read some of the pleadings. I've read 


[13] 


wish. 




\i\<i Hnnnr's HpcHsion on flip nrp limin'irv iniiinption msitfp r nnrl 

lllj IIKJIIXJL D V.IV,V. lOlV^J I \Jll 1.1 IV- LyJ v, JX11JJJ ltll 7 1J 1 J LI J IV. UWl 1 UlrtVLV,! 11 J 1 VI 


[14] 


Q: Please do. 


[15] 


I 1 C«lvl 111C CVJlllLJlilllll. 1 1 CilU VtllUJvIj \Jl 11 1C lllUUwlij. i 1CJU 


[15] 


A: O.K. Movie companies plan quite carefully about the 


[16] 


LJ1C L>I IC1 a Oil LIIC 1110110113 3Ul 1 OUllvllllg Hull, 1 UOIl I 1C111C111DC1 


[16] 


release of their movies. They release them in various windows 


[17] 


CAaCliy. 


[17] 


of distribution, first to theater, then to airlines, then to 


mat 


Q; Now, I'd like to put several assumptions in front of you. 


[18] 


hotels and premium cable, then to DVDs and videotapes, then to 


HOT 


A«s«iiimp tfvit Off tpplinoloov P'in Hp nsftl to rirrnmvpnl' Hip 

/ voDUiiik. 1 1 1<« t i/v.Vji.'j ivvujivjiut,y V-iiii is\~ u jvu tvy v,j_i v. niii » v,i i l lijv. 


[19] 


network television, then to basic cable and television 


[20] 


<lvLC5a «11 Ivl COOy L>1 OlCv.11011 V. Ol Hit LI ICvJ Oil L/ V JJ llJOVlCo. 1 JIC11 


[20] 


stations, and this set of windows, as they are called, are 


[21] 


'Kciimf fliit i <s 'i ir*dilt frTi" m <: l^w* /■ Af^cwT^tf^fX 'inn 
«laalllllC LI lctl tlc> *i 1 V.SUII, LUC 1HOV1C5 v.OUlv.1 OC Llv-v. 1 y LCU *1 1 lvJ 


[21] 


organized, timed, produced so as to extract in the movie 


[22] 


copied. 


1^1 


rnnin'i nv's ooinion th«° miYimnm nrrvfit frrvm thp movips 

V-Vy llnl./tlj 1 y O UUJJ UU1 1 11 lv. 1 1 hIAl 1 1 1 II 1 J 1 I V I will 11 Will 11 IV, U IVy > 1 v. J - 


[23] 


Assume the movies could be transmitted over the 


[23] 


Now, in planning to do that and in considering what 


[24] 


Internet, but transmission lines and hard drive capacities are 


[24] 


investments to make as to movies, the movie companies under 


[25] 


not quite advanced enough to make it convenient for a large 


[25] 


the assumptions you've given me will have to take into account 

■ 




Pane RRft 




Page 558 


[1] 


11UI11DC1 Ol COilipUlCl UWJltl o lO ODUUJI lllC IUvJVICj. 


[1] 


the quite likely expectation that there will be negligible, 


r?i 

L^J 


A<\«siimp Tnfprnpt snppck nnri stornf^p piinnpitiP"s nrp 


[2] 


probably a substantial number of free, unlicensed copies of 


[3] 


CApCCLCCl LL> lIlv.lCttoC JJ1 LJ1C 11 Cell ItlLUIC Ik) L11C p<JlIll L1I«1L bUCll 


[3] 


DVDs in circulation, if they release movies in DVDs, and 


T41 


transmissions could be widely achieved. 


[4] 


they'll have to think about what to do about that. 


t 5 ] 


/Vllv.1 ltiatiy, ttddUllJC tllcll ilVJ HlitlClldl ill IlvJLI 111 Kjl \-\J\Jy lliK, 


[5] 


Either they'll have to let that happen, plan to let 


[ g ] 


KJL 11 til lc*lllio51\Jl I ll<lo VCl I4IKCII LililV-C 


[6] 


that happen, or they will have to not release movies as DVDs. 


I 7 ! 


JL/L/ yUU UIlvJCI oUillCl llUJaC *ioc>UIIipiJ.UIlar 


[7] 


In any event, their plans for the release of movies that they 




A. Yps T rlo 

/n. ICS, 1 vl\J. 


[8] 


are now making or will make in the near future will be 


TQ1 
L y J 


Vj< . vjlVCJl tllvJoC ajjulllL' tiyjl vlU yv/li lltlVC al 1 vyLJlllivAll tXo L\J 


[9] 


changed.They won't get as much revenue as they would have 


m m 
l" u J 


W11CL11C1 LilC V tlljlil LJIXl L y v/1 iy tVvO J WVJLUvI L/ICIUUCC ll«ll 111: 


[10] 


done. It will not be as profitable for them to invest in 


n 11 

I' 'J 


MR GARBUS* T would ohipct to thp nupstion 

1 v 1 1 1 ■ vni 1 wvi x r» vuiu vy 1 v^ v, i. lv_/ lj iv^ vl Li v.- j> lj 11. 


[11] 


movies. 


[12] 


1 rccugiUAt ui«iL <iu cApcri wiuicba is aiiowccj it) 


[12] 


That will change, to some extent, the inputs they 


h<vi 
I'^J 


icjiu y yji 1 Liic L/<tsio v/i tiaauiiiijmjii, uui 1 iiuuiiv ui<ii u ic 


[13] 


choose to put into movies. It will have changed the decision 


[14] 


«laaUllJpilCHl5 II*1VC 1<J DC 111U1C piCCloC LJlall LllC aobUIIipiIUIla U14L 


[14] 


in marginal cases as to whether to accept a movie. It may in 




"wrprp oivpn to thi< ^tvitnp^;*; 

W LI V. iyX V *~J 1 Iv LJ 11 W1L11v»Ov>. 


[15] 


some cases — it will generally force them to take actions 


l |D J 


For PY^mnlp worris lik"p "npar Fntiirf" anH thf»n th^» 

J. v/l LAillll !_/ J.V* . WUlUJ JilVV JlVul lUlUlv. i.1 J 1 Vl L11C11 VJ 1C 


[16] 


which while profit maximizing in the presence of the new 


P 'J 


W 1 1U1C l.|LJCk>llv/ll Ul gCl 1C1 <*ll/.*lllv/112> \Jl 111LC1 11CI CtlfJnCIly. 1 


[17] 


constraints that the prospect of unlicensed copies would not 


nai 


think thilt tliP nnpstion is had as to form in not Hpino rirf»r*i<p 

CJJLUi.1V vl 1*4 L 11 1 \_ VI UV.iJI.iVJ 1 M*J I-/41VJ Mi? LV/ 1 VI 111 JJ 1 11V7L JLrW JJ 1 fL \J I V. V- J >D\-. 


[18] 


have been profit maximizing without it and in that respect, it 


[19] 


about the assumptions and it being so generalized as to the 


[19] 


will change what they do. It will reduce their expected 


[20] 


assumptions as to render any answer meaningless. 


[20] 


profits. It exposes them to risk.TTiat's a harm. 




i nt. wvun i . ii gvtj ic» wcigiii «ii ivi 11 a iiiuiicr lor 


[21] 


Q: Now, I'd like to change several of those assumptions. 


[22] 


cross-examination. Overruled. 


[22] 


Assume now that copying has taken place and that unauthorized 


[23] 


You may answer. 


[23] 


high-quality reproductions of copyrighted DVDs are available 


[24] 


A: I'm sorry. Could you read back just what the last bit of 


[24] 


on the Internet for free. 


[25] 


the question was? I lost it. 


[25] 


Do you have any opinion on whether the availability 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. Min-U-Script® (39) Page 555 - Page 558 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 559 

[1] of such reproductions would cause harm to the owners of the 
[2] copyright in those films? 

[3] MR. GARBUS: I would object to the question on the 
[4] grounds that when this witness was deposed back on July 6, 
[5] 2000, and he was asked what he was going to testify to, he 
[6] talked about testifying on the assumptions that there was no 
[7] copying. 

[8] And I would object to any testimony that implies any 
[9] kind of copying. 
110] THE COURT: Mr. Gold? 

[1 1] MR GOLD: The witness in that deposition, as I 

[12] remember, was asked many questions about the harm that would 

113] ensue from the complaint of the acts contained in the 

{14] complaint in this action, and he answered them. And I think 

[15] that this hypothetical is relative, not to all, but to many of 

116] the questions and answers in that deposition. 

[17] MR. GARBUS: I object.That's not what this witness' 

118] proposed expert testimony was going to be. 

[19] THE COURT: Was there ever a Rule 26 statement served 

[20] with respect to the experts in this case? 

[21] MR GOLD: There was a declaration. The way this case 

[22] has run, everybody has put in an affidavit from their expert. 

[23] MR. GARBUS: That's not entirely so. We have served 

124] with respect to Mr. Fisher, an affidavit in the case. We have 

125] received from other witnesses, including our own 



Page 560 

[1] declarations — they're supposed to conform. We've never 

[2] received any document from Mr. Fisher, other than the 

[3] affidavit he submitted on the motions. 

[4] So, there has been no document submitted by 

[5] Mr. Fisher.All wc have is his deposition testimony which was 

[6] based on conversations he had with Mr. Hart which dealt with 

[7] his testimony on the basis that there was no copying. 

18] THE COURTYWhat part of tlie^deposition are you 

[9] relying on, Mr. Garbus? Do you have the page? 

[10] And someone please give me a copy. 

[1 1] MR. GARBUS: He says at page 9 — 

[12] THE COURT: I will read it for myself. I would just 

[13] like to see it. 

[u] So, it's page 9, Mr. Garbus? 

115} MR. GARBUS: Page 9, line — the very top of the 
116] answer. 

[17] MR GOLD: The declaration of Franklin Fisher I have 
[18] is in six pages or five and a quarter. 
119] THE COURT: Just let me do one tiling at a time, Mr. 
[20] Gold, please. 

[21] MR. GARBUS: And then, again, at page 17, he's 

[22] answering at line 1 3, we went again over my position on the 

123] question of damage, if there was not copying. 

124] THE COURT: Page 17? 

125] MR. GARBUS: Yes. It's the long answer. 



Page 561 

THE COURT: And what about the part on page 1 1 where 
the examiner for the defendant, whoever that may have been 
said: 

"Q.And that's the basis of your testimony here 
today basically on the assumptions that there is no copying?" 

And the witness answered: "I don't think the basis 
of my testimony — I am prepared to testify either on the 
assumption that there is copying or on the assumptions that 
there isn't, but I don't know for a fact whether there is or 
is not." 

What about that? 

MR. GARBUS: I think that what he said was that he 
was going to testify on the basis of no copying. I recognize 
how the answer that he gave me affects that. But he was 
specifically offered, as it says at page 9 and page 17, on the 
grounds of no copying had taken place. 

(Continued on next page) 



Page 562 

[1] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, in addition to the portion of 

[2] the deposition transcript you've read, page 56 of his 

[3] declaration says, at paragraph 11, "I'm less in serious 

[4] disagreement with professor Kurlantzick if it is his opinion 

[5] that the availability of an authorized product for free on the 

[6] Internet will not have a substantial market impact upon those 

[7] companies which are in the business of producing and 



[8] distributing feature films." 

[9] THE COURT: The objection is overruled. The defense 
[10] was clearly on notice. 

[11] Q: Professor Fisher, the question is: Assume now that 
[12] copying has taken place and that unauthorized time quality 
[13] reproductions of copyrighted films are available on the 
[14] Internet for free. Do you have any opinion on whether the 
[15] availability of such reproductions would cause harm to the 
[16] owners of the copyright in those films? 
[17] A: Indeed I do. 
[18] Q: And what is that opinion, sir? 

[19] A: I think it would cause harm in several ways. The most 
[20] obvious way has to do with the sale of DVDs. We are talking 
[21] about a situation in which unlicensed copies are available 
[22] free. People who would otherwise have bought DVDs at fairly 
[23] high prices, in the roughly $25, a little less, will now have 
[24] the option of getting those same tilings or essentially the 
[25] same things at zero. It's not difficult to figure out that 



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[I] people would prefer to buy at zero rather than buy at a higher 
[2] price. The result of that would be that revenues from the 

[3] sale of the DVDs to the movie companies will go way down, they 
[4] will have to either cut the prices of DVDs very substantially 
[5] or not sell DVDs at all. That's apart from the DVDs that have 
[6] already been made and can no longer, as it were, be withheld. 
[7] There will be other effects as well. 
[8] Q: What would that be, sir? 

[9] A: People who would otherwise have bought or rented 
[10] videotapes will now have the option of instead acquiring 

[II) movies at essentially a zero after they — some of them will 
[12] of course have to acquire a DVD player. Given that option, 
[13] one would expect sales and rentals of movies, videotapes of 
[14] movies also to decrease. 

[15] In addition, there will be some more effects. As I 
[16] mentioned before, movies are released through a series of 
[17] windows, and those windows are staggered in time quite 
[18] deliberately. If copying becomes widespread, and unlicensed 
[19] free copies of movies circulate a good deal, then by the time 
[20] the movies are released to ordinary network television and 
[21] then further there are likely to be more people who have seen 
[22] them, and seen them incidentally for free, which is why there 
[23] will be more people, that would make the audience for those 
[24] movies on network television lower than it would otherwise 
[25] have been and make the movies less valuable to the networks 



Page 564 

[1] and then again to the later uses, and that in turn will reduce 
[2] what networks and other television broadcasters or cable 
[3] casters are willing to pay for movie rights. 
[4] There may in addition be an effect, as it were, 
[5] earlier in time than that. That has to do with the following: 
[6] People deciding to go to the movie theater or to 
[7] watch movies on premium cable or on Pay-Per-View now have to 
[8] make the decision should we pay the price to go to the movie 
[9] theater or should we pay the price either to subscribe to a 
[10] premium service or to watch Pay-Per-View, and they do that 
[11] presumably because — aside from the fact they might like the 
[12] experience of going to the movie theaters — they are choosing 
[13] doing that now or waiting for a later release when the movie 
[14] becomes available on videotape or on DVD, and then still later 
[15] on free television. 

[16] At present, without copies, they are making that 
[17] decision based on the fact that in order to get the movie when 
[18] it is released on DVD or videotapes, you have to pay sometliing 
[19] for it. In the circumstance of free copying, free unlicensed 
[20] copying of DVDs, they are going to have that decision maybe 
[21] somewhat altered. Instead of saying, well, I go to the movies 
[22] now or I can wait, but if I wait I'll either have to wait a 
[23] long time or I'll have to pay something, they will be saying, 
[24] well, I can go to the movies now and pay or I can wait, but if 
[25] I wait the movie will be available free and rather earlier 



Page 565 

[I] than it used to be. And that will tend to shift decisions 

[2] somewhat at least in favor of waiting. That will make movies 
[3] less valuable for premium cable, it will make movies less 
[4] valuable for theatrical exhibition, although I don't think the 
[5] effect I'm talking about now — of course, I don't think 
[6] that's the largest effect.This one is somewhat indirect. 
[7] I might also mention that effect will take some time 
[8] to work itself out simply because premium cable companies tend 
[9] to contract for and pay for movies before they are even 
[10] produced. 

[II] Q: Professor Fisher, would your opinion that the availability 
[12] of free unauthorized copies of film on the Internet would have 
[13] a negative effect on sales, licensing and distribution, hold 

[14] if the free copies were of a lesser quality than the 
[15] authorized copies? 

[16] A: Yes, it would. Let me explain. On the one hand, 
[17] obviously in some limited case it can't hold. If the copies 
[18] were so bad that they were unwa tenable, then there might as 
[19] well not be any copies at all. iNow we are talking — I assume 
[20] we are not talking about that. I assume we are talking about 
[21] some degradation in quality relative to the original DVD, less 
[22] than that. 

[23] There is large literature, maybe only medium-sized 
[24] literature, in economics about how one adjusts prices for 
[25] quality and about the tradeoff of quality changes in prices. 



Page 566 

[1] I have contributed somewhat to it, but I'm certainly not the 
[2] primary person. And I think it is well established and not 
[3] difficult to understand that you can think of a "good at a 
[4] given price with lower quality" as equivalent to a "good with 
[5] higher quality at a lower price." Or put it differently, a 
[6] degradation in quality is like an increase in price. 
[7] People instead of paying in money pay in what 
[8] economists call utility for the degradation in quality. 
[9] Therefore, I think the right way to think about this is that a 
[10] lower quality copy available free would be the equivalent not 
[11] of having the original at a zero price but of having the 
[12] original at perhaps only a very low price, and while that 
[13] might tend to moderate the effect a bit, it certainly wouldn't 
[14] change them in substance. 

[15] Q : Professor Fisher, you have mentioned that movies are timed 
[16] and released to different segments of the market at different 
[17] times. Why is that? 

[18] A: It's because the willingness of people to pay to see 
[19] movies differs depending on bow long the movie has been out, 
[20] the circumstances in which it has been out, how much it has 
[21] been exposed and so forth. People who will pay to see a movie 
[22] in the theater on first release are paying fairly high ticket 
[23] prices.That wouldn't be true — in other words, they 
[24] wouldn't pay the same high ticket prices if the movie had 
[25] already been visible to them in lots of other forms, except 



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(1] for rather special movies. I know people go to see Gone With 
[2] The Wind every time it comes around, but that's at least an 
[3] unusual case. 

[4] Now, the movie companies take advantage of this by 
[5] offering licenses to their property at different times and at 
16] different prices, in different modes of exhibition, to try to 
[7] capture revenues from the people who are willing to pay a high 
[8] price and then capture other revenues that come directly or 
[9] indirectly from people who aren't willing to pay that price 

[10] but are interested in seeing the movie later on and so on. 

11 1] Q: Will the DeCSS hack of DVDs cause or have any impact on 

[12] the studio's right to determine when and in what format the 

[13] film should be distributed? 

[14] MR. GARBUS: Object to the form of the question. 

[15] (Record read) 

116] THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 

[17] Q: Do you have an understanding as to whether the studios now 
[18] carefully time their distribution? 
[19] A: They absolutely do. 

[20] Q: And how will the circulation or the availability of free 
[21] decrypted DVDs via the Internet affect the studio's decisions 
[22] about timing of release in different segments of the market? 
[23] A: Well, as I've already said, once the movie gets copied on 
124] DVD its value in later uses goes down, because people can 
[25] watch it for free, and one presumes that many will. 

Page 568 



Page 569 

[1] time by the no-cost availability of movies on the Internet? 

[2] A: Yes, I do tliink so. Once tilings become available for 

[3] free, particularly, I don't tliink exclusively, but 

[4] particularly on the Internet, people come to expect that they 

[5] will continue to be available for free. It won't be a novelty 

[6] after a while. People will regard this as a regular way to 

[7] obtain movies. They will plan for it, as it were, in 

[8] considering whether to go to theaters or whether to buy 

[9] licensed copies. 

[10] Q: In your opinion, would the availability of free 
[11] unauthorized copies of films likely stimulate interest in 
[12] films, causing an increase in sales? 

[13] A: Well, you have to be careful. It depends what you mean by 
| [14] sales. If you mean by sales will it cause more people to 
[15] watch movies overall, the answer is it might. But if you mean 
[16] by sales will it increase the revenues of movie companies, the 
[17] answer is of course it won't increase the revenues of movie 
[18] companies. There will be people who watch movies for free, 
[19] who would not have watched them when they had to pay. That 
[20] taken alone would be an increase in viewership but it surely 
[21] wouldn't be an increase in revenue. 
[22] There will also be people who watch the movies for 
[23] free that they would otherwise have paid to watch. Directly 
[24] or indirectly, that will certainly be a decrease in revenue. 
[25] Q: Dr. Einhorn in his deposition transcript took the position 

Page 570 

[1] that the availability of free unauthorized DVD movies on the 

[2] Internet could lead more consumers to buy DVD players, which 

[3] in turn could lead those same consumers to buy more authorized 

[4] DVD movies, which would result in a net gain or at least no 

[5] net loss to the movie industry. 

[6] What is your opinion concerning that position? 

[7] A: I think a polite word is fantasy. Look, I should have 

[8] mentioned this in connection with my previous answer as well, 

[9] there is a presumption that I hold and I think any reasonable 

[10] person holds:The movie companies understand their own 

[11] business. 

[12] I would start out by saying I suppose they understand 
[13] it better than Dr. Einhorn does and better than I do. And if 
[14] the movie companies really thought that was true, the movie 
[15] companies would be encouraging in the first instance perhaps 
[16] unauthorized copies — which they're certainly not doing — 
[17] and in the second they would be promoting the distribution of 
[18] DVD players. Now they may decide to do that. If they do 
[19] that, they will do it in ways that they consider brings them 
[20] the most benefit. But I think it escapes belief to suppose 
[21] that unauthorized copying is going to lead to increased 
[22] profits for the movie companies. 

[23] People who use the DVD players acquire those DVD 

[24] players and in this circumstance are acquiring them precisely 

[25] to watch free copies. They are not going to acquire them 



[1] The prospect that the movie will be copied on DVD 

[2] also reduces the extent to which people will pay in theaters. 

[3] I don't know quite which way this will go, but I think that 

[4] would mean either an adjustment in prices in the various forms 

[5] of release or an accelerated release schedule, less time in 

16] movies, possibly earlier exhibition on free television, less 

[7] time in premium television. I don't know, but it will change 

[8] that rather crucial set of decisions. 

[9] Q: Do you know whether the movie studios are currently 
[10] uisu ibuting movies via the Internet? 

[1 13 A: I do not know for sure that they are actually doing that. 

[12] Q: Let's assume that the studios are now considering entering 

[13] the market for Internet-distributed motion picture content. 

114] Using that assumption, what would be your opinion as a matter 

[15] of economic analysis as to whether that market would or 

[16] wouldn't be harmed by the free availability of copyrighted 

[17] motion picture content on the Internet? 

[18] A: Look, that's an easy one. If there is widespread copying 

[19] and distribution of copies of movies once they go on DVDs, and 

[20] if the movie companies continue to issue DVDs, the movie 

[21] company's ability to extract payment for distributing 

[22] themselves movies on the Internet is going to be highly 

[23] reduced, they are going to be competing, as it were, with free 

[24] copies of themselves. 

[25] Q : In your opinion would purchasing behavior be affected over 



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[1] because they want to pay a lot of money to watch the 
[2] originals. That doesn't make any sense. 

[3] Q : Do you have any knowledge abou t the markets for computer 

[4] operating systems? 

[5] A: Oh, more than you want to know. 

[6] Q: In paragraph 11 of his declaration. Dr. Einhorn states, 

[7] "If priced in open sourced fashion, a LiViD player will be 

[8] made freely available to home PCs using any operating system. 

[9] This could maximize the base of enabled users and promote the 
[10] sales of DVDs far beyond any other event." Do you agree with 
[11] that statement? 
[12] A: I do not. 
[13] Q: Why not? 

[U] A: Well, a LiViD player is a DVD player for Linux. Now, 
[15] there are a couple of things to say about this. One is Linux 
[16] is and I think for the foreseeable future surely will be a 
[17] system wliich is used by a relatively small minority, an 
[18] operating system used by a relatively small minority 7 of 
[19] computer users. I'm talking about individuals and desktop 
r [20] computer users, not servers, and I think there are good 
[21] reasons for that. 

[22] Secondly, you have to realize that LiViD players 
[23] would not be a net gain in viewership or a very large net gain 
[24] in viewership in any event. Operating systems don't view 
[25] movies. People view movies. Well, I know some peculiar 

Page 572 

[1] people and I am related to some of them. I want to make clear 
[2] I'm not criticizing any general set, but people typically 
[3] don't buy DVD players so that they can play them on a 
[4] particular operating system, except if they are interested 
[5] directly in the technology People buy DVD players because 
[6] they want to watch movies. 

[7] Now, it happens that almost everybody — I don't 
[8] think it's everybody, but it's very widespread — almost 
[9] everybody who has a computer who will run Linux, has a 
[10] computer that will run Windows, and therefore those same 
[11] people are able to watch DVD movies without having a LiViD 
[12] player. They just don't have to watch them on Linux. 
[13] I should also mention — perhaps I already did — 
[14] that if it were true that the availability 7 of LiViD players 
[15] was going to mean a great increase in sales for the movie 
[16] companies, I mean dollar sales, then the movie companies would 
[17] be promoting it, and they indeed may be promoting the creation — 



Page 573 

[1] access to its closed operating platform. " 
[2] Do you agree with that conclusion? 
[3] A: No. 
[4] Q: Why not? 

[5] A: Well, in the first place it is not true that the findings 
[6] in the iMicrosoft case are that Microsoft illegally restricts 
[7] access to its closed platform. There are of course extensive 
[8] findings that Microsoft did commit illegal acts, but those 
[9] aren't it. 

[10] Secondly, it's true that Microsoft's monopoly power, 
[11] now found to have been illegal, is protected by something 
[12] called in the Microsoft case the applications barriered entry, 
[13] which I won't go into in detail unless somebody wants me to. 
[14] This has to do with a natural phenomenon in which manymany, 
[15] many more applications are written for Windows than for 
[16] anything else. Linux suffers in its competition with 
[17] Microsoft from the disadvantages of the applications barriered 
| [18] entry. Indeed, one of the commercial purveyors of Linux had 

! [19] to pav software developers to write word processing programs 

j 

| [20] for Linux, programs of the sort that get written for free for 
[21] Windows. Okay. 

[22] Now, I don't believe it's true that — I hope I'm 

[23] wrong — I don't believe it's true that Linux is going to 

[24] succeed in becoming an all-out competitor to Microsoft. That 

[25] will depend in large part on what remedies there finally are 

Page 574 

[1] in the Microsoft case. And remedies in that case are a very 
[2] complicated matter. And I certainly don't believe that the 
[3] availability of LiViD players is going to be of giant help in 
[4] that. It will be of some help. 

[5] Every application that's written for Linux makes 
[6] Linux a more interesting system, but it strikes me as simply 
[7] bizarre to suppose that one ought to permit unlicensed copying 
[8] in the hopes that this will provide an answer to the problems 
[9] in Microsoft. You might as well take that to extremes and 
[10] observe that if one were to cancel all copyright of its 
[1 1] software, that would take care of quite nicely a good deal of 
[12] the Microsoft problem, but it doesn't sound like a remedy 
[13] that, how shall I put it, is set up to fit the problem. 
[14] Q: Do you recall that the first economic expert opinion that 
[15] you read of defendants' expert was that of a professor 
[16] Kurlantzick, a law professor at University of Connecticut? 
[T7] A: I do. 

[18] Q: The defendants have chosen not to call him to the stand. 
[19] THE COURT: The problem. Dr. Fisher, is you are about 
[20] two inches too close to the microphone and it swallows some of 
[21] your words. 

[22] THE WITNESS: I'm sorry 

[23] Q: In professor Kurlantzick's declaration — 

[24] THE COURT: Mr. Gold, he is not going to testify, is 

[25] that right? 



[18] and sales of LiViD players but of course they would be doing 
[19] it under conditions of licensing involving the exploitation 
[20] for money of their intellectual property instead of the giving 
[21] away of it free. 

[22] Q: Turning to Dr. Einhorn again. In paragraph 12 of his 
[23j declaration he states as follows, "Efforts that hinder the 
[24] development of open source operating systems play into the 
[25] hands of Microsoft, which illegally restricts competitive 



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[1] MR. GOLD: We are told he is not. 
I2j MR. GARBUS: He is not. 

\3] THE COURT: Is the substantial equivalent of whatever 
[4] he said in his declaration going to be offered by the 
15] defendants? 

[6] MR. GARBUS: It will be. 

[7] THE COURT: It will be. All right, go ahead. 

[8] Q: In that declaration Professor Kurlantzick states — 

[9] MR. GARBUS: He is not listed as a witness. I don't 
[10] know if the Court would then receive his affidavit. If the 
[1 1] Court would not receive his affidavit, then the question is 
112] improper. In other words, we knew he was not going to testify- 
113] so we had not anticipated putting his affidavit in, so I think 
[14] the more precise answer to your question will be that he will 
115] not be a witness and, therefore, his affidavit would not be 
116] admissible. 

117] THE COURT: And I understood all that.The next 

[18] question was whether tlirough somebody else you will offer the 

[19] substantial equivalent of what you offered previously. 

[20] MR. GARBUS: Yes. 

121] THE COURT: You will. So, I will let the witness go 
[22] ahead and answer it, but in the first place we will take a 15 
[23] minute break for the afternoon, and I will ask Anna to speak 
[24] to Mr. Young to tell him what I said before about his request. 
[25] (Recess) 

Page 576 

[1] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, there was to be a witness 

[2] named Eric Burns, but the parties have just now worked out a 

[3] stipulation, and we will be designating portions of his 

[4] deposition. He would like to come into the room and watch. 

[5] THE COURT: Any problem? 

16] MR. ATLAS: No problem. 

[7] THE COURT: Bring him in. Okay, Mr. Gold. 

[8] DIRECT EXAMINATION Continued 

[9] BY MR. GOLD: 

[10] G: Professor Fisher, we go back to the declaration of 
in] Professor Kurlantzick, and within paragraph 3 he stated as 
[12] follows: 

[13] U A common error in assessing the financial effects of 
[14] unauthorized reproduction is the positing of a one-to-one 
[15] ratio between acts of copying and displaced sales.That is, 
[16] the assumption is that each pirate sale and instance of home 
[17] recording of music, for example, represents a lost sale by the 
[18] original record company. But that assumption is erroneous and 
119] contrary to accepted microeconomic principles. If it costs a 
[20] person less to reproduce a recording than it does to purchase 
[21] on the original, it does not follow that a person who home 
[22] records will necessarily purchase the record if the home 
[23] recording option is available. The willingness to pay $2 for 
124] a product, whether a quart of orange juice or a musical tape 
[25] does not necessarily indicate a willingness to pay $6 for that 



Page 577 

[I] product." 

[2] Do you agree with that conclusion? 
[3] A: Well, I do and I don't. 
[4] Q: Could you explain, sir. 

[5] A: Okay. I don't know whether it's a common error to posit a 
[6] one-for-one ratio. I haven't seen it. In any case it's not 
[7] my error. My conclusions certainly don't depend on that. 
[8] It is perfectly true economic analysis, and common 
[9] sense suggests it, that if there are copies available lor free 
[10] whereas before there were only originals available at a price 
[11] of 20 some dollars, that some of the people who take the 
[12] copies for free would not have paid the 20 some dollars in any 
[13] event. 

[14] But the important fact is that economic analysis also 
[15] assures us that a number of people who paid $20 previously 
I [16] will now take the copies for free. Before there was one store 
[17] to which they could go and buy things for $20 and it was that 
[18] or nothing, and some people went in and some people didn't. 
[19] Now there are two stores, one offering for $20 and one 
[20] offering substantially the same tiling for zero. It doesn't 
[21] take much to figure out that among the people who go into the 
[22] zero priced store are going to be people who would have gone 
[23] into the $20 store. 

[24] MR. GOLD: Thank you. I have no further questions, 
[25] your Honor. 

Page 578 

[1] THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Gold. Mr. Garbus. 
[2] CROSS-EXAMINATION 
[3] BY MR. GARBUS: 

[4] Q: Professor Fisher, how much are you being paid for your 
[5] time here today? 

[6] A: I'm being paid my current standard commercial rate, which 
[7] is $900 an hour. 

[8] Q: And how many hours have you thus far spent on this case? 
[9] A: Up to today, approximately 16. 
[10] Q: Now, is it fair to say that during the first half of the 

[II] year you made approximately $300,000 as a result of testifying 
[12] in cases? 

[13] A: No, I believe I told you at deposition that with some 
[14] uncertainty I thought I made about $300, 000 in connection with 
[15] cases involved in litigation, not in testifying in them 
[16] necessarily. 

[17] Q: How much did you make last year in connection with 

[18] testifying? Do you recall your estimate of $600,000? 

[19] A: I don't. I do recall my estimate. I have no reason to 

[20] think it was either righter or wronger than I told you then. 

[21] It's roughly right. 

[22] Q: $600,000 last year? 

[23] A: In connection with litigation, not necessarily in 
[24] connection with testifying. 

[25] Q: And in the previous five years, your average also was 



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SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





Page 579 




Page 581 


[1] 


$600,000, was it not, in connection with your work in 


[1] 


was my view they would not for reasons I am happy to go into, 


12] 


litigation? 


[2] 


but probably that would take us too far afield. 


[3] 


A: Again, I think that's what I told you at deposition. I 


[3] 


"Cross-examination of me was really quite successful. 


[4] 


don't mean to change it now. I wasn't certain then, I'm not 


[4] 


It consisted very largely of ASCAP's lawyer asking me if I 


[5] 


particularly certain now, but it's roughly of that order of 


[5] 


ever talked to a songwriter; and I observed that I had not, 


[6] 


magnitude. 


[6] 


partly because they were, in fact, the defendants, in effect; 


[7] 


Q: And are you involved with a company called Charles River 


[7] 


and the judge made much of this and disregarded much of my 


[8] 


Associates? 


[8] 


testimony on the grounds that I had never talked to a 


[9] 


A: I am indeed. 




songwriter. 


[10] 


Q: And did that company earn last year approximately $35 


[10] 


"In Polaroid v. Kodak I was a damage witness, and I 


[11] 


million for its work in preparation for litigation and 


[11] 


put forward a quite elaborate model of damages for Polaroid, 


[12] 


servicing lawyers? 


[12] 


winch I still think was quite correct. The judge in that case 


[13] 


A: In connection with litigation. That's got to be roughly 


n3i 


essentially — I tliink what happened there was he 


[14] 


right. 


[14] 


essentially — he found for Polaroid, by the way, and quite a 


[15] 


Q: Are you a shareholder in that corporation? 


i 1 °J 


hip nwnrd but hp dppidpd wlvit hp thoucht thp iiwnrd should bp - 

L/l <-y £l W ill V.I , VJ 11 I J1V. VJ V~ V. 1 V.1 V. VJ V> lldl Jlv 1.1 1 Vy vi «~ J 11 11 1 V- i\ * V <u VI O I Ivy U1U UV , 


[16] 


A: I am. 


[16] 


tiJlvJ JJ1 U1UL1 lO gv. 1 IHCIC, Jl*lU IL> U1M Cgill vJCLl Ult LC^ILIIJLMI V {Jl 


[17] 


Q: Are you a chairman of the board in that corporation? 


I 1 'J 


pvptv pvnprt inplnrlino mp* inrl hp thprpiir^on wpnf r»nf iind 

V V-.A.I^V.l L, 11 1 V. 1 Ll Mil 1 1^ 11|V~» ill lv.1 I1C LI 1V_1 V. II L/VJ1 1 VYLJ1L Will (U1VJ 


[18] 


A: Yes, I am. 


[18] 


disregarded the testimony of every expert, including me; and 


[19] 


Q: Have there been any cases in winch you have testified 


MQ1 


hp S'lirl so Holh stripy " 

1 IV- Jill V.1 LJKJ\.ll .51V.IV-0. 


[20] 


where the court has totally disregarded your testimony? 


[20] 


Then you continue somewhat. 


[21] 


A: There have been — 


1 j 


Did you tyvc that answer to that question? 


[22] 


Q: Just answer yes or no. 


L"J 


A* ^lirf* 1 /~1i/J A n/"l T xx/'ic thinVino rtf fhrwp 'in<\x/pr<; w/hpn T 
r\. OLIIC 1 v.Ilv.1. /YJ IL.I I Wito UUIlK-lIlg Ol lllL/oC alloWCi 5 Wlldl I 


[23] 


A: Totally disregard? 


[23] 


told you that just saying yes or no would be misleading. 


[24] 


Q: Yes. 


[24] 


Q: Now, how many other cases are you involved in at the 


[25] 


A: No. 


[25] 


present moment? 




Page 580 




Page 582 


[1] 


Q: Disregarded much of your testimony? 


Ml 
L'J 


A* Snmpwhfff hpfwppn Ipn 'inrl 1 J Th:it inplndps nil ensps 

r\ . JvlllV. W1IL1 L. JL/V_ L W V. V_ 1 1 IV. 1 1 <ti IV.I A ±> . 1 1 l«.l l 11 1V.1 LI VJV-J t»JLI V.UOV.J 


[2] 


A: If you want simply a yes or no answer, I think the answer 




llvif I'm no lonopr invpJvpH in 'inri flvit T rlon't know nrp dpnd 

LJ l»l L 1 111 Jlv lUJl^Ll 11 1 > KJl > V_ V.1 JLI 1 «ll lv.1 Li 1 1* L l v.lv/11 L Ivl i\/ >v ai v. viv. avi. 


[3] 


is no. I think the answer may be becoming somewhat 


IvJ 


Hut nf tho*iP wrriTilfl hp risps r>n "whiph no work hns hppn 

UUl OL/11JV- KJl L 1 1 V 7 «7 V_- V V LI 1 LI L>V_ V_tlC5V,;5 \Jl 1 W111V.11 1 LKJ »VV/JL1\ I ItXJ L/LV.J1 


[4] 


misleading. 


[4] 


vJUIiC l\Jl ti v-VJUpiC KJl ycAio. 


[5] 


Q: At your deposition, reading now at page 38 — start at 


[5] 


\j. iou anci l cuscusseci ai some lengm — uy uic way, nave yvju 


[6] 


page 37. Do you recall these questions and answers? And I am 


[6] 


uonc ally bLUUlcJ) blllCC v (JLir ucpuaiLivjii ui Jul)' vj, 


[7] 


just reading some preliminary questions: 


L'J 


A" In this pnsp'* 


[8] 


"Q. These are cases in which you are quoted or cited. 


rai 


Q: Yes. 


[9] 


And could you tell me wliich one of the two." Then there is an 


L y i 


A- Mo 


[10] 


objection by Mr. Hart — 


[10] 


Qi Have you prepared any studies at all of your own of any 


[11] 


"A.Weil, I believe all the cases I described now are 


[11] 


rtiiaiyMa ui uic iiiovic uiuusiry iui uic purpuac kji yum 


[12] 


cases I testified in; and so the opinion says something about 


[12] 


testimony in tliis case? 


[13] 


me. No, I don't remember beyond that. I do remember some of 


[13] 


A* Nn 


[14] 


them. Both Polaroid v. Kodak and CBS v. ASCAP discussed my 


MAI 


O* Or* vr*ii l^nr»w thp nil mhpr rkfOVFi*; thill wptp SPilfl Ipt's SUV 


[15] 


testimony specifically — not favorably on the whole; and the 


[15] 


in ihp vp^ir 1 OQQ? 


[16] 


others I don't remember. 


[16] 


Ai I do not. 


[17] 


"Q. When you say 'not favorably,' can you be more 


[17] 


\j . ukj you KJiovv uic numDcr ui u\ ub nidi wcic avjiu, uuii die 


[18] 


specific? 


[18] 


expected to be sold in the year 2000? 


[19] 


"A. Sure. Well, I can't be — I mean, I can be more 


[19] 


A: I do not. 


[20] 


specific, but I can't group the two of them. So I will need 


[20] 


Ci' v^i i hiA7^» onu iHfi nf inv Af th/» T^iA/rW thil" wf rp <rvlH in 
\jt . UKJ y\ju ji«ivc tiiiy luta vji «tiiy kjl liic u v uj uiat wcic >ljjv.i in 


[21] 


to describe each one of them separately. In CBS v. ASCAP, 


V- 'J 


thp list flvp vP'ir*; or intipir>ntpd hpino sold in ihp npvt fivp 

Lllv. 1a1v>L 11 t v- r V,*1I J KJl 4»J 1 L1V. 1 \J tX LV^ V.1 L_/V_ 1 1 1 JV^IVJ Ll 1 L11V. HV-Al 11V L 


[22] 


1973, 1 testified at considerable length for CBS. And in part 


[22] 


years? 


[23] 


the judge's findings of fact turned on the question of whether 


[23] 


A: I do not. That's why I said — that's why I was asked to 


[24] ASCAP members — if CBS dropped its so-called blanket 


[24] 


and I said I would testify on the basis of assumptions. I 


[25] 


license — would have lined up to do business with CBS. It 


[25] haven't made any separate fact studies. 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



Min-U-Script® 



(45) Page 579 - Page 582 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





Page 583 




Page 585 


[1] 


Q: Now, when you say you haven't made any fact studies, tell 


[1] 


the tire and the ice pick? 


12] 


me about these 16 hours. Did you speak to anybody at the 


[2] 


THE COURT: No, just do the cross-examination. 


13] 


studios? 


[3] 


MR. GARBUS: Okay 


14] 


A: Other than counsel, no. 


[4] 


THE COURT: That's not intended in any way to cast 


15] 


Q: Did you call anybody at the MPAA for any information about 


[5] 


any aspersions on the witness who is just here doing what he 


16] 


sales, piracy, loss of sales due to piracy, or different ways 


[6] 


was asked to do. 


[7] 


in which piracy is accomplished? 


[7] 


THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I have never before been 


[8] 


A: No. 


[8] 


called the world's greatest expert on physical chemistry. 


19] 


Q: Did you call anybody at any of the studios to learn any 


[9] 


THE COURT: I didn't call you that either. 


[10] 


facts for either the last five years or the projected five 


[10] 


BY MR. GARBUS: 


[11] 


years concerning sales, loss of sales, piracy, the 


[11] 


Q: So your testimony of 16 hours at $900, that costs the 


112] 


relationship between piracy and cost? 


[12] 


plaintiff about 13 or $14,000 if my addition is correct? 


113] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I am going to object. It was 


[13] 


THE COURT: Do you need a Ph.D. for that, Mr. Garbus, 


£14] 


very clear from Mr. Fisher's direct testimony exactly what he 


[14] 


to multiply 16 times nine? 


[15] 


relied upon and, therefore, exactly what he didn't. 


[15] 


MR. GARBUS: I went to the High School of Science and 


[16] 


THE COURT: I know. Look, I don't know why we have 


[16] 


I was bad in math. 


[17] 


the witness in the first place. You have basically called the 


[17] 


THE COURT: You are up to it, Mr. Garbus. Next 


118] 


equivalent of the world's leading expert on physical chemistry 


[18] 


question. 


119] 


to testily' that under the laws of physics and chemistry if you 


[19] 


Q: Who contacted you about this case? 


[20] 


drive an ice pick into an inflated automobile tire the air 


[20] 


A: I was first contacted by Mark Litvak who is an attorney 


[21] 


will come out, and the cross-examination is designed to prove 


[21] 


for the Motion Picture Association. 


[22] 


that that opinion did not involve looking at anybody driving 


[22] 


Q: Isn't it a fact, by the way — do you know anything about 


[23] 


an ice pick into the tire. 


[23] 


the growth of Linux in the United States? 


[24] 


w j.j . t . nm ••11 j /V i t y 

I understand that. This is all wonderful. I mean I 


[24] 


A: I know some tilings about it, yes. 


[25] 


don't know that we needed an expert witness to say that all 


[25] 


Q: Isn't it growing at roughly 30 percent a year? 




Page 584 




Page 586 


11] 


tilings being equal if you give the stuff away for free some 


[1] 


A: On desktops? 


[2] 


number of people who previously paid for it maybe won't pay 


[2] 


Q: Yes. 


13] 


for it in the future. 


[3] 


A: That would exceed the numbers I've seen. 


14] 


MR. GOLD: As always I think your Honor has much to 


[4] 


Q: And with respect to their entire sales of desktops and 


[5] 


say on the subject that is truthful and right, but I wish very 


[5] 


word processors, can you tell me? 


16] 


much that the motion on damages and them limine motions were 


[6] 


A: It's not desktops and word processors. It's desktops and 


[7] 


granted, because I thought we could dispose of any foreseeable 


[7] 


servers. Servers are growing fast. I don't know what the 


18] 


factual issue in less than a day and a half. And I tried. 


[8] 


rate is, but they are very successful on servers. 


19] 


THE COURT: I still have my reservations about 


[9] 


Q: Have you seen articles recently about China and the Linux 


[10] 


whether there are very many factual issues in this case. 


[10] 


system? 


1113 


MR. GOLD: Well, you know our position, but I felt 


[11] 


A: I'm aware very recently of an article that said that China 


£12] 


that put us in somewhat of a bind. People wanted assurances. 


[12] 


has decided to adopt Linux. 


113] 


THE COURT: I am no more complaining about you 


[13] 


Q: A lot of people in China? 


114] 


calling the witness than I am complaining about Mr. Garbus 


[14] 


A: There are a lot of people in China. Most of them I 


115] 


asking these questions. You are both doing what you think you 


[15] 


shouldn't tliink buy $25 DVDs. 


116] 


have to do. If either one of you thinks it is moving me in 


[16] 


Q: Do you know how many Linux systems right now are being 


117] 


either direction, I invite you to tliink about the car tire and 


[17] 


sold in China? 


118] 


the ice pick. 


[18] 


A: I do not. 


119] 


MR. GOLD: We did try to do it in less than 40 


[19] 


Q: Do you know of any other country that is backing any other 


[20] 


minutes, which is in my experience the usual. 


[20] 


operating system? 


[21] 


THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Garbus. 


[21] 


A: No, I don't. 


[22] 


MR. GARBUS: I'm trying to think about the tire and 


[22] 


Q: Professor Fisher, do you recall testifying in your 


[23] the ice pick. 


[23] deposition about the circumstances of your affidavit? 


124] 


THE COURT: Good. 


[24] 


A: Yes, I do. 


125] 


MR. GARBUS: Can I have five minutes to tliink about 

_ 


[25] 


Q: And you remember you said you signed the affidavit in a 



Page 583 - Page 586 (46) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 





Page 587 




Page 589 


[1] 


hurry? 


[1] 


to? 


[2] 


A: Yes. 


[2] 


A: Well, you just — 


13] 


Q: Now, can you tell the Court why you signed the affidavit 


[3] 


Q: Your name. 


[4] 


in a hurry? 


[4] 


A: You just pointed out it has been cited twice. 


[5] 


A: Because it was due. 


[5] 


Q: Favorably. 


[6] 


Q: When did they call you to become an expert in this case? 


[6] 


A: I don't recall that it — my testimony, as opposed to some 


m 


A: About a week before it was due, I think, a week to ten 


[7] 


other tilings I've written — have been cited favorably, 


[8] 


days. 


[8] 


although in at least one rather important case and also in 


[9] 


Q: And who called you? 


[9] 


others the court's opinions have tracked the testimony fairly 


[10] 


A: Mr. Litvak in the first instance, and then Mr. Litvak and 


[10] 


closely. 


[11] 


Mr. Hart, and I'm not quite sure whether Mr. Hart was on the 


[11] 


Q: Let me ask you the question again. Has your name ever 


[12] 


first conversation, but if not he was on almost immediately. 


[12] 


been cited with respect to any testimony that you have ever 


[13] 


Q: And do you recall testifying that prior to the time you 


[13] 


given in any case over the last 20 years? 


[14] 


signed the affidavit you had spent a total of three hours on 


[14] 


A: Favorably? 


[15] 


the case? 


[15] 


Q: Yes. 


[16] 


A: Yes. 


[16] 


A: I do not recall specific citation of my name, no. 


[17] 


Q: So, you gave an opinion in an affidavit for this case 


[17] 


Q: Is the answer no? 


[18] 


based on three hours. What did you do in those three hours to 


[18] 


A: I think I've told you twice now. 


[19] 


help form an opinion in tins case? 


[19] 


Q: Now, when you had this conversation about whether any 


[20] 


A: I thought — 


[20] 


copying had taken place, who was it who said to you we might 


[21] 


Q: You thought a lot. 


[21] 


want you to testify on the basis that no copying had taken 


[22] 


A: I'm not finished. 


[22] 


place? 


123] 


Q: Excuse me. 


[23] 


A: Mr. Litvak, but I don't think he said — I'm sorry. 


[24] 


A: When I would like you to finish my sentences, I'll ask 


[24] 


Q: Tell me what he said. I don't want to misstate it. 


[25] 


you. I thought about what economic analysis had to say, and 


[25] 


A: I don't think we discussed specifically whether copying 




Page 588 




Page 590 


[1] 


that wasn't really very difficult. I did some writing of 


[1] 


had taken place. I think the question that was posed to me 


[2] 


portions of the affidavit along those lines. I read the 


[2] 


was if I assumed that no copying had yet taken place, would it 


[3] 


declarations of defendants' experts and decided quite quickly 


[3] 


still be the case that there was harm. 


[4] 


that there wasn't any need, they weren't very long and most of 


[4] 


Q: Did you ask him if they had any proof of any copying? 


[5] 


them weren't about economics anyway, and what they had to say 


[5] 


A: No, I wasn't asked that. 


[6] 


about economics was easy to discuss, and I said what I thought 


[6] 


Q: So, you get the call. By the way, who did the first draft 


[7] 


about that.This wasn't exactly a difficult task. 


[7] 


of tliis affidavit? 


[8] 


Q: Did you tell Mr. Hart that an economist wasn't needed to 


[8] 


A: Mr. Hart did the first draft after substantial 


[9] 


testify in this case? 


[9] 


conversation with me. 


[10] 


A: My first reaction to Mr. Litvak actually, or Mr. Litvak 


[10] 


Q: So, let me see if I understand what happens in this three 


[11] 


and Mr. Hart, the way they posed the question, which wasn't 


[11] 


hours from the time you first get called until the time this 


[12] 


quite the way I came to think about it, which is it didn't 


[12] 


affidavit is created, which is a six page affidavit. Tell me 


[13] 


quite have to did with economics, but then when I checked with 


[13] 


how it works. 


[14] 


my company Charles River Associates for conflicts and I 


[14] 


A: Okay. 


[15] 


thought some more about tins, and I thought that wasn't true, 


[15] 


Q: By then do you have the documents in the case? 


[16] 


that economists do in fact have something to say about this. 


[16] 


A: By when? 


[17] 


Q: I don't want to be repetitive, but let me just ask you one 


[17] 


Q: At the time that you are drafting your first affidavit. 


[18] 


question. In those three hours did you look at any one 


[18] 


MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I'm not sure — I think that's 


[19] 


statistic coming out of the movie industry? 


[19] 


a misstatement of the testimony. 


[20] 


A: No. 


[20] 


MR. GARBUS: Let me ask it again. 


[21] 


Q: Now, have you ever seen Mr. Kurlantzick's testimony which 


[21] 


THE COURT: I think it is. 


[22] 


is cited by the Ninth Circuit in the Rio case? 


[22] 


Q: Tell me what happens during those three hours from the 


[23] 


A: I have not. 


[23] 


time you are retained until the time the affidavit is created. 


[24] 


Q: Has your testimony with your name on it specifically ever 


[24] 


A: I had a preliminary conversation with Mr. Litvak,and then 


[25] been cited in any case, in all the cases you have testified 


[25] with Mr. Litvak and Mr. Hart, about what economics might 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. Min-U-Script® (47) Page 587 - Page 590 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 591 

11] apply. 

[2] Q: By the way, do you have time sheets? 

[3] A: If you mean do I have records? I do have records of how 

[4] much time was spent on particular days. I do not have records 

15] of what was done during that time. 

[6] MR. GARBUS: We had asked for those records. I don't 

17] know, because Mr. Hernstadt is not here, whether or not they 

[8] were produced. Mr. Gold? 

[9] MR. GOLD: No. It might be one of my overnight 
[10] assignments to prove the things you have in your file. 
11 1] THE COURT: Oh, Mr. Gold, enough already, really, 
[12] from both sides and from the witness. I'm referring to the 
113] comment about finishing sentences. 
114] MR. GARBUS: Your Honor, may I approach the bench? 
1153 THE COURT: Yes. 

116] Q: I give you Defendants' Exhibit AYX. It has some 
[17] scribbling at the top which has nothing to do with the 
118] exhibit. I don't know if the original has scribbling or not. 
119] I recognize the scribbling is my handwriting wliich is totally 
[20] unrelated to it. 

121] Mr. Fisher, you testified in the Microsoft case as an 
[22] antitrust expert? 
123] A: Yes. 

[24] Q: Were you asked in this case to testify in the antitrust 
[25] areas? 



Page 592 

[1] A: No. 

[2] Q: Take a look at your affidavit. How many years did you 
[3] teach at MIT? 
[4] A: 40. 

[5] Q: And look at the number on the third paragraph of the first 
[6] page of the affidavit. What is that number? 
[7] A: 3. 

[8] Q: What number generally follows after 3? 
[9] A: 4. 

[10] G: What is the number of the next paragraph? 

111] A: Unfortunately there has been a glitch and it says 2. 

[12] There is a repetition of the numbers 2 and 3. 

[13] Q: Now, when you say unfortunately there is a glitch, did you 

[14] read this affidavit before you signed it? 

[15] A: Of course I read it. 

[16] Q: Now, look at the indentation at pages 5 and 6. It's a 
[17] different indentation, is it not, than the other pages in the 
[18] affidavit. 
[19] A: It is. 

[20] Q: And were these documents signed on separate papers? 

[21] Pardon me. Were these affidavits — 

[22] THE COURT: There is only one affidavit. 

[23] Q: Was this affidavit sent to you in several pieces? 

[24] A: No, I had the whole affidavit when I signed it. 

125] Q: Are you aware of the — do you know Mr. David Boies? 



Page 593 

[1] A: I do. 

[2] Q: Have you seen any of the reports or studies that have been 
[3] filed in the Napster case? 
[4] A: I have not. 

[5] Q: Are you aware of any studies that have been filed by the 
[6] Digital Media Association with respect to the effect of 
[7] illegal copying of either movies or audio on sales? 
[8] A: No. 

[9] Q: Do you know of the report of Professor Fayder that has 
[10] been filed in the Napster case concerning the relationship 
[1 1] between sales and piracy? 
[12] A: I do not. 

[13] Q: Do you know of the report filed by the Annenberg Center at 
[14] the University 7 of Southern California on the relationship 
[15] between piracy and increased sales? 
[16] A: In the Napster case? 
[17] Q: Yes. 

[18] A: I don't. I've already told you I don't know of any of the 
[19] reports. 

[20] Q: Putting those reports aside, prior to coming here today 

[21] have you looked at any report ever created relating 

[22] specifically to the movie industry and the effect of illegal 

[23] copying and sales? 

[24] A: No. 

[25] Q: You mentioned all the books vou have written and all the 



Page 594 

[1] articles you have written, is that right? 
[2] A: By number. 

[3] Q: Have you ever written a book specifically dealing with the 
[4] relationship between piracy or illegal copying in the movie 
[5] industry and sales? 
[6] A: No. 

[7] Q: And would your answer be the same if I asked you with 
[8] respect to have you ever written an article specifically 
[9] dealing with the effects of piracy or copying and sales? 
[10] A: Yes, my answer would be the same. 

[11] Q : Now, do you know that Professor Kurlantzick who you spoke 
[12] about before had testified in the Rio case in California? 
[13] A: No. 

[14] Q: Did you know that both the trial court and the Ninth 

[15] Circuit had cited the exact same testimony that you have just 

[16] been asked about by Mr. Gold? 

[17] MR. GOLD: Objection, your Honor. 

[18] THE COURT: Sustained as to form at least. 

[19] Q: Do you know who Professor Kurlantzick is? 

[20] A: Only from reading his declaration in this case. 

[21] Q: Did you ever make any attempt to find out anything about 

[22] his background? 

[23] A: No. 

[24] Q: To your knowledge, has he ever testified in any cases 
[25] involving the relationship between copying and sales in the 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 595 

[1] record history? 
[2] A: I don't know. 

[3] Q: Now, have you ever heard of Professor Einhorn? 
[4] A: No, never. 

[5] Q: Have you ever read any articles that Professor Kurlantzick 
[6] has written about the relationship between piracy or illegal 



[7] copying and sales? 
[8] A: No. 

[9] MR. GOLD: Objection, your Honor, no foundation. 
[10] THE COURT: Sustained. 
[11] Q: Do you know if he has? 
[12] A: No. 

[13] Q: Do you know if Professor Einhorn has ever written any 
[14] articles about the relationship between sales and illegal 
[15] copying? 
[16] A: No. 

[17] Q: Do you know who Barbara Simon is? 

[18] A: I read her declaration, and while I forget at the moment 

[19] what her position is, my recollection is she is with a 

[20] nonprofit group. 

[21] Q: Now.do you know who Professor Abelson is at Princeton — 
[22] pardon me — at MIT? 

[23] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object to this line. 

[24] Abelson is a computer assistant professor at Princeton, and we 

[25] could go through — 



Page 596 

[1] MR. GARBUS: I withdraw it. 

[2] Q: You were asked in your assumption to make certain 
[3] assumptions about Internet speeds. Have you ever written any 
[4] articles specifically related to the sending of movies over 
[5] the Internet? 
[6] A: No. 

[7] Q: Have you ever seen a DVD movie, period? 
[8] A: No. 

[9] Q: Have you ever seen or has anyone ever asked you to see a 
[10] movie that was allegedly transmitted that had been deencrypted 
[11] through DeCSS? 
[12] A: No. 

[13] Q: Is there any way that you can have a position on the 
[14] difference in the quality between two tilings that you haven't 
[15] seen? 

[16] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, I object to the question. 
[17] THE COURT: Sustained. He didn't offer any opinion 
[18] on that subject. 

[19] MR. GARBUS: Your Honor, I don't think I'll be too 
[20] long. 

[21] Q: Do you know what an individual demand curve is? 
[22] A: Yes. 

[23] Q: Do you know what a market demand curve is? 
[24] A: Yes. 

[25] Q: Did you try and prepare any of those curves prior to your 



Page 597 

[1] testimony here today concerning the movie industry or any 
[2] individual buyer of DVDs? 

[3] A: I thought about the properties of those curves, but I 

[4] certainly didn't try empirically to estimate. 

[5] Q: Now isn't it true that at a zero price there are many 

[61 people who will get a DVD where they would not pay 10, 12 or 



[7] $ 1 5 for it, and that it therefore doesn't affect their 
[8] particular buying of the product? 

[9] A: A, yes, it is certainly true that there would be some such 
[10] people. I don't know how many. B, yes, it is true that it 
[11] doesn't affect people buying the product on DVDs, although it 
[12] might affect the question of whether they are interested in 
[13] watching it in other windows of release. 
[14] MR. GARBUS: This will just be the last question I 
[15] think, although I'm not sure. 

[16] Q: I presume no one ever told you that there was one single 
[17] sale that's been lost thus far as a result of DeCSS. 
[18] A: Sir, is it a question whether somebody ever told me that? 
[19] Q: Yes. 

[20] A: No, nobody ever told me that. 

[21] Q: Did you ask anyone at the Proskauer firm before you 
[22] testified here today whether or not you could see any studies 
[23] or any statistics that the movie industry had put together 
[24] concerning illegal copying and sales? 
[25] MR. GOLD: I object, your Honor. It lacks 



Page 598 

[1] foundation. 

[2] THE COURT: Overruled. Answer if you can, please. 

[3] A: No, I didn't. I saw no need for that. 

[4] Q: Now, with respect to the first affidavit, how was the 

[5] affidavit signed? In person? In fox? 

[6] A: I signed it — first of all there is only one. 

[7] Q: Yes. 

[8] A: I signed it in person, I sent a faxed copy to Mr. Hart, 
[9] and then I sent by I think it's express mail the entire 

[10] affidavit and the original signature of Mr. Hart. 

[11] Q: So that was three hours. And you say you have worked a 

[12] total of I think 16 hours? 

[13] A: Yes. 

[14] Q: Tell me where the other 16 hours come from? 

[15] A: Well, I good deal. 

[16] MR. GOLD: The mathematics are wrong. 

[17] Q: Where did the other 13 hours come from? 

[18] A: Well, I spent a good many of them with you at the 

[19] deposition. 

[20] Q: It was a pleasure. 

[21] A: It was for me. And I spent some time in preparation for 
[22] that deposition. 

[23] Q: How much time did you spend in preparation for the 
[24] deposition? 

[25] A: A couple hours.TTie question — I'm sorry. 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Page 599 

ji] Q: Pardon me. That's with Mr. Hart and Mr. Proskauer? 
I2j THE COURT: Mr. Proskauer hasn't been with us for a 
13] long time. 

H] Q: That's with Mr. Hart? 

15] THE COURT: I thought we were getting into a new area 
16] of expertise. 

17] A: Yes, it was with Mr. Hart. 

[8] Q: So that was how long? Two hours for the deposition? 
19] A: Yes, there was some travel time to get to the deposition 
110] and back. 

111] Q: You came down from Cape Cod? 
[12] A: We like to think of it as up, but, yes. 

113] Q: So you charged them for the time that it took you to come 
114] down from Cape Cod for your deposition, is tiiat right? 
115] A: Yes. 

[16] Q: And then you were prepared for your testimony here. 
[17] A: Yes. 

[18] Q: And how long did that take? 

-fraj Ar L had-scvcTahcorrvcrsatio ns in the las t couple of d ays; 

[20] and I would say in total those took about two or three hours, 

121] maybe less, about two hours. That was before today. 

122] Q: Did you at any time call any other economists who had ever 

123] done any research either in the movie industry or the record 

[24] industry? 

125] A: No. 

Page 600 

[1] Q: Did you at any time buy a book that deals with sales in 
[2] the movie industry? 

[3] MR. GOLD: Your Honor, that lacks foundation. I'm 

f4] not sure there is — 

[5] THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. 

16] Q: Do you know of any books that deal with the question of 

[7] sales in the movie industry? 

[8] A: In the sense you mean, no, I don't. 

19] Q: Did you go to the MPAA site at any time? By the way, do 
1103 you go on the Internet? 
111] A: From time to time. 

[12] Q: And do you know about Internet speeds? 

113] A: I'm sorry 7 . "From time to time" makes it sound as though 

[14] it's infrequent. It's not infrequent. 

11 5] Q: And do you know what Internet speeds are let's say with 

116] respect to whatever your computer connection is? 

117] A: I know generally. I don't know that I know very 

118] precisely. Between my wife and me we have about four 

[19] computers that we use for this purpose, so they are at 

[20] different speeds. 

121] Q: You are not an expert though, are you, on Internet speeds 
122] on computers or within universities. 

123] A: Well, I know some tilings about them, and some of those 
124] tilings I know from the Microsoft case, but, no, I would not 
125] consider myself to be a specific expert on that subject. 



Page 599 - Page 602 (50) 



Page 601 

[1] Q: Thank you. Have you ever testified in a case involving — 

[2] and I'm not talking about copyright — in a case involving 

[3] illegal copying of movies, videos, cassettes or DVDs? 

[4] A: No. 

[5] Q: Have you ever testified in a case involving fair use 

[6] issues? 

[7] A: I don't think so. 

[8] Q : Have you ever read any academic study — pardon me — are 

[9] there any academic studies that you know of concerning the 

[10] relationship between illegal copying and price? 

[11] A: I shouldn't think so. 

[12] Q: In any event, you haven't read any that you know of? 

[13] A: No, I do know of some issues in the Microsoft case 

[14] relating to illegal copying and price, but those aren't 

[15] academic studies. 

[16] MR. GARBUS: Excuse me. Can I hear that again? 

[17] (Record read) 

[18] Q: Did you look for any academic studies at any time prior to 

[19] the tune you came here to testily concerning the relationship 

[20] between illegal copying and price? 

[21] MR. GOLD: I think that lacks foundation, your Honor. 

[22] THE COURT: I think we have pretty much exhausted 

[23] this line of inquiry, Mr. Garbus. 

[24] MR. GARBUS: I will just be very brief and just ask a 

[25] few other questions. 

Page 602 

[1] Q: One of the cases you are testifying in is the Walmart 

[2] case, is that right? 

[3] A: Let me be precise. I have given a deposition in the 

[4] Walmart case. Against Visa and Mastercard, a class action 

[5] case, I expect to testify. 

[6] Q: And in that case the fee was $800 an hour? 

[7] A: Yes, that was my regular fee for cases up until about nine 

[8] months ago. 

[9] Q: Have you — withdrawn. I think this will be the last. 

[10] (Continued on next page) 
[11] 

[12] 
[13] 
[14] 
[15] 
[16] 
[17] 
[18] 
[19] 
[20] 
[21] 
[22] 
[23] 
[24] 
[25] 



Min-U-Script® SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 603 

11] Q: By the way, do you know what a blank DVD disk costs? 
12] A: We had some discussion of that at my deposition, other 
[3] than the information exchanged there, I do not know. 
[4i Q: Do you know what a regular DVD costs that's not blank? 



Page 605 



[1] MR. GARBUS: You are very computer proficient. 
[2] THE COURT: Thank you. 

[3] THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. I apologize for 

[4] the earlier comment 



[5] A: I'm told that it could cost roughly $25. 

[6] Q: Have you ever bought one? 

[7] A: No. 

[8] Q: Did you ever look at any of the license agreements in this 

[9] case — withdrawn. 

[10] Were you shown any documents in this case other than 

[11] the affidavits you've previously referred to? 

[12] THE COURT: Asked and answered. 

[13] He described in detail earlier what he looked at. 

[14] MR. GARBUS: I have no further questions. 

[15] THE COURT: Mr. Garbus, I just want to be clear about 

[16] something. Am I to understand from you that the Court, the 

[17] Ninth Circuit and the District Court in the case to which you 

[18] referred, which I think was the R-I-A-A. 

[19] MR. GARBUS: R-I-O. 

[20] THE COURT: Pardon? 

[21] MR. GARBUS: R-I-O. I call it the Rio case. I think 

[22] Rio may just have been a party — 

[23] MR GOLD: 1 think it's the Diamond Media case. 

[24] THE COURT: Diamond Media? 

[25] MR. GARBUS: Yes. 



Page 604 

[1] THE COURT: Now, am I to understand that it's your 
[2] position that the District Court and the Court of Appeals' 
[3] opinions relied on Professor Kurlantzick's express testimony 
[4] in tins? 

[5] MR. GARBUS: I think the Court today, I think that 

[6] the Court of Appeals quoted him, but I don't remember about 

[7] the trial court. 

[8] THE COURT: I would appreciate if you would cite that 
[9] to me because I have just been looking on Westlaw and what I 
[10] find that the Court of Appeals says there is a dispute about 
[1 1] the effect of illegal copying on sales and it cites 
[12] Kurlantzick as on one side of dispute and the record industry 
[13] association on the other. And it doesn't adopt any view of 
[14] the dispute. 
[15] MR. GARBUS: Yes. 

[16] THE COURT: Well, if that's what it means to say, 
[17] they adopted his view, I guess we have learned something, but 
[18] if there is something else to wliich you are referring, I would 
[19] like to know about it. 

[20] MR. GARBUS: I think I was just referring to that 

[21] case and I guess my — in any event, the case says what it 

[22] says. 

[23] THE COURT: It says what it says O.K., thank you. 
[24] Anything else for this witness, Mr. Gold? 
[25] MR GOLD: No. 



[5] THE COURT: Relax. Everybody has got to relax. 
[6] (Witness excused) 

[7] THE COURT: Mr. Gold, what's next? Or I will tell 

[8] you what, since I have another conference at 4:30, let's talk 

[9] about scheduling and not call another witness now. 

[10] MR. GARBUS: May we approach the bench on scheduling? 

[1 1] THE COURT: Let me just find out if 1 really have a 

[12] 4:30. 

[13] Let's talk about scheduling now. I do have a 4:30. 

[14] MR. GARBUS: Do you want to do it from here? 

[15] THE COURT: We can do it from here. 

[16] What have you got left, Mr. Gold? 

[17] MR GOLD: 1 think only one witness. I'd have to 

[18] check. If it isn't one, it's two. 

[19] THE COURT: If it isn't one it's? 

[20] MR GOLD: It's two. And I can find out in a minute, 

[21] if you want me to. 

[22] THE COURT: Well, can't Mr. Cooper find out while you 

[23] are here dealing with tins? 

[24] Mr. Cooper, go find out whether you have one witness 

[25] left or two; O.K.?. 



Page 606 

[1] MR. COOPER: Yes, your Honor. 

[2] THE COURT: Who is the one you are sure about? 

[3] MR GOLD: McHale. 

[4] THE COURT: And who is the one you are not sure 
[5] about? 

[6] MR. GOLD: The one, I'm not not sure about, I'm 
[7] really not sure about. I haven't had much to do with it. I 
[8] need to check with other people. I'm not withholding 
[9] anything. 

[10] THE COURT: Then what have we got from you, Mr. 
[11] Garbus? 

[12] MR. GARBUS: I was told this was three or four days. 
[13] THE COURT: Well, tomorrow is the fourth day. 
[14] MR. GARBUS: Right. I think we could put on people 
[15] Friday morning. 

[16] THE COURT: Tomorrow, whenever the plaintiff is done 

[17] tomorrow, I mean I had a conference with you folks and I 

[13] alerted you that that was the rule. We are not just going to 

[19] kill a half a day because somebody is not ready to proceed. 

[20] MR. GARBUS: I don't know — I don't know that — I 

[21] would make an attempt to do it. I don't know as I stand here 

[22] now, but I will certainly go out and make a call. 

[23] THE COURT: Well, I assume your client is going to 

[24] testify and he is sitting right here now. 

[25] MR. GARBUS: Don't make that assumption. 



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Trial Volume 3 
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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 





Page 607 




Page 609 


11] 


THE COURT: Well, I suggest unless you are clear that 


[1] 


brief this at the end of the trial? Is that what you are 


12] 


Mr. Gold is going to fill the day tomorrow — 


[2] 


going to want to do? 


13] 


MR. GARBUS: I'm not clear. We were supposed to be 


[3] 


MR. GARBUS: Whatever the Court wants. 


14] 


told each day what they were going to do tomorrow. 


[4] 


THE COURT: I'm asking what you want and then I will 


[5] 


MR GOLD: Here we are. 


[5] 


decide. 


16] 


THE COURT: Here we are. 


[6] 


MR. GARBUS: Mr. Gold? 


m 


MR. GARBUS: I was supposed to be told at 10 in the 


[7] 


MR. GOLD: We would like to brief it. I have no idea 


[8] 


morning what they were going to be doing tomorrow. I was 


[8] 


whether Mr. Garbus would like to brief it. 


[9] 


never told that. I did not know they were going to finish 


[9] 


MR. GARBUS: I'll do whatever Mr. Gold wants to do. 


{10] 


tomorrow. 


[10] 


I'm very agreeable. 


[11] 


THE COURT: Look, I have known since the first day of 


[11] 


THE COURT: I have commented before on how agreeable 


[12] 


the trial that they expected to finish tomorrow. Indeed I 


[12] 


you have both been in this case. 


[13] 


think I have known it since the pretrial on July 12th. You 


[13] 


MR. GOLD: I'll remain silent, and I expect to get 


[14] 


could check, but I have certainly known they expected to be 


[14] 


credit for it. 


[15] 


done on Thursday. 


[15] 


THE COURT: Sufficient unto the day. 


116] 


But what do we have, one witness or two? 


[16] 


I will see you tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock. And 


[17] 


MR GOLD: We have one witness and the second witness 


[17] 


I warn you both that if this tiling begins to run beyond the 


[18] 


we hope we are working out an arrangement. It's the young man 


[18] 


expectations I have heard about how long it's going to be, we 


[19] 


from Washing ton who will talk about his exhibits on his 


[19] 


are going to lengthen the court day 


[20] 


initial affidavits in the preliminary injunction motion. I 


F201 


MR. ATLAS: One other tiling, tomorrow morning, 


[21] 


can't imagine — 


[21] 


Mr. Johansen, I believe, will go first pursuant to what we 


[22] 


THE COURT: Does he have a name? 


[22] 


discussed yesterday at sidebar. 


[23] 


MR GOLD: Bruce Boyden; B-O-Y-D-E-N. 


[23] 


THE COURT: All right. So, now you know No. 1, Mr. 


[24] 


THE COURT: Putting aside for the moment whether we 


[24] 


Gold. 


[25] 


get started on the defense case tomorrow, what is the defense 


[25] 


MR GOLD: And all I need is No. 2. 




Page 608 




Page 610 


[1] 


case? We now know what the plaintiffs case is, Mr. Garbus. 


[1] 


Thank you, your Honor. 


[2] 


MR. GARBUS: I don't think it should take more than 




(Proceedings adjourned to July 20, 2000, at 9 


[3] 


four days and I think perhaps less. I think the direct 




o'clock) 




examination should be relatively short. So, I think, assuming 


f41 




[5] 


that there is a — I think we probably are going to produce 


[5] 




[6] 


about nine or ten witnesses. I think they're short witnesses. 


[6] 




[7] 


And I think that they're the witnesses who we've identified 


171 




[8] 


and these are witnesses who have been deposed. So, I think 


[8] 




[9] 


they can be short. 


fQl 




[10] 


THE COURT: All right. 


rim 
11 U J 




[11] 


MR GOLD: Your Honor, tomorrow morning I think that, 


M 11 
L 1 'J 




[12] 


I'm assuming we'll work out this, but with respect to Boyden, 






113] 


we might have on direct, one, one hour and a quarter, and then 


[13] 




114] 


it should be the end of our case. 


[14] 




115] 


THE COURT: All right. Make sure we do everything 


[15] 




[16] 


possible to have testimony here tomorrow, Mr. Garbus. 






117] 


MR. GARBUS: I shall. 


M 71 
P 'J 




118] 


THE COURT: Because I will not be very charitable. 




[19] 


MR. GOLD: Can I know the other side of that, your 


li yj 




[20] 


Honor? I'd like to know who they're putting on tomorrow. 


K U J 




[21] 


THE COURT: What's your plan, Mr. Garbus? 


[21] 




[22] 


MR. GARBUS: I'll make some phone calls and I'll 


[22] 




[23] advise Mr. Gold by, I hope, 7 o'clock tonight. 


[23] 




[24J 


THE COURT: All right. 


[24] 




[25] 


Now, is it going to be your expectation or desire to 


[25] 





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Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



Page 61 1 



[1] INDEX OF EXAMINATION 

[2] Witness D X RD RX 

[3] MARSHA KING 416 424 

[4] 468 543 549 

[5] FRANKLIN M. FISHER 551 578 

[6] 

[7] DEFENDANT EXHIBITS 

[8] Exhibit No. Received 

[9] RK 467 

[10] BX 530 

[11] 
[12] 
[13] 
[14] 
[15] 
[16] 
[17] 
[18] 
[19] 
[20] 
[21] 
[22] 
[23] 
[24] 
[25] 
[N24] 



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UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



v. 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



$10,000 439:7,9 
$14,000 585:12 
$15 597:7 
$2 576:23 

$20 577:15,17,19, 23 
$25 562:23; 586: 15; 603:5 
$300,000 578:11,14 
$35 million 579:10 
$6 576:25 

$600,000 578:18,22; 
579:1 

$800 602:6 

$900 578:7; 585:11 



o 


01636 525:18 




01644 525:18 




1 





I 413:13, 25; 470:13; 
475:18; 499:20; 513:17; 
609:23 

10 417:24; 442:3; 526:20, 
20; 597:6; 607:7 
100 553:21 

II 413:13; 561:1:562:3; 
571:6 

12413:13;419:13; 
451:14; 525:1; 572:22; 
582:1; 597:6 
12(a)(3)(a 540:6 
1201 (a 540:7, 11 
12:30 525 2 
12th 607:13 

13 413:13; 463:15; 
465:25; 560:22; 585:12; 
598:17 

1394 450:22 

14 413:13 

15 467:11; 521:25; 575:22 

16 413:13; 553:20; 578:9; 
583:2; 585:11, 14; 598:12, 
14 

17 560:21,24; 561:15 

1956 552:6 

1957 552:7 
1960 552:7 
1973 580:22 
1979 552:17 

1990 468:7, 10; 549:2,7 
1992 472:16, 21;473:16 

1994 475:12 

1995 469:1; 470: 5, 5,13; 
471:15; 475:18; 479:6 

1996 469.4, 17; 479:6, 8, 
9, 10 

1997 480:25; 514:23, 24; 



515:7, 24; 522:11; 523:4, 
12; 525:5; 533:2 
1999 452:6; 582:15 



2 413:13; 449:16, 18, 19, 

24; 450:1, 2, 4, 7; 533:9; 

592:11,12; 609:25 

2)(a 540:3 

2.2.2 521:3; 522:9 

20 451:19; 577:11, 12; 

589:13;6lO:2 

2000 417:25; 427:17; 

463:15; 507:4; 544:7, 19; 

545:4,16; 549:9,10; 

559:5; 582:6, 18; 610:2 

20000 419:14 

20th 509:3; 532:20 

22 475:12 

228 527:18 

26 559:19 

2600.com 425:16, 22; 
426:1,13, 17; 435:15; 
454:6 

28 555:1 
2M 455:4 



3 515:17; 576:11; 592:7, 
8, 12 

3)(a 540:3,4, 13 

30 522:11; 525:5; 553:23; 
585:25 

31 514:23; 515:4 
36,999 424:12 

37 580:6 
37,000 424:8 

38 580:5 



4 516:6, 10; 524:7; 592:9 
40 517:6; 518:25; 519:8, 
20; 531:5,8; 532:4,9; 
551:18; 552:16; 584:19; 
592:4 

40th 432:4 
455(b)(2 474:10 
4:30 605:8,12,13 



5 417:23; 418:4; 432:4; 

516:10; 592:16 

5.1 444:8, 10,21 

56 531:12; 532:7; 562:2 

58 531:12; 532:7 

5C 450:21, 493:11, 12, 15 



6 559:4; 582:6; 592:16 
65 531:12 



7 608:23 



8 



8 527:20 
84413:11 



9413:11; 560:11, 14, 15; 
561:15:610:2 
90s 469:5 
92 475:4 

95 470:9, 12, 18; 47 1:20; 
475:4 

96 468:17; 470:6, 12; 
475:4; 480:14; 517:2 

97 516:14; 532:4 
99 441:25; 516:24 
9996 479:7 
9:00 609:16 



a)(1 540:3 
a)(3)(a 540:15 
a)(3)(b 540:12 
A-1 483:15; 485:4 
Abelson 595:21,24 
ability 447:25; 480:18, 
23; 568:21 

able 413:25; 423:24; 
456:4; 471:2, 14;477:15; 
498:8; 500:25; 519:1 1, 12; 
533:7; 572:11 
absence 414:24 
absent 474:21; 525:18 
absolute 511:24 
absolutely 469:16; 
567:19 

abstract 475:5 
academic 601:8, 9, 15, 
18 

Academy 552 21 

accelerated "(-8:5 

accept 469:24; 520:19; 
555:6; 558:14 

acceptable 471:9 
acceptance 472:9 
accepted 419:15; 576:19 
access 448:7, 13; 
501:19; 519:24; 523:9, 25; 
534:20; 555:20; 573:1, 7 



Accolade 500:12 
accomplish 549:4 
accomplished 583:7 
account 454:22, 24; 
557:25 

accurate 436:18; 440:19; 
516:16 

accurately 489:21 
achieved 556:4 
acquire 488:13; 563:12; 
570:23, 25 

acquiring 563:10; 570:24 

Act 470:25; 471:3; 
472:1 5; 473:16; 476:24; 
487:10, 19; 488:15; 499:8 
action 433:2; 548:6; 
559:14; 602:4 
actions 558:15 
acts 559:13; 573:8; 
576:15 

actually 420:23; 462.12; 
506:9; 557:7; 568:11; 
588:10 
ad 499:11 
added 444:18 
adding 505:21 
addition 451:12; 478:11; 
505:21; 506:2; 521:10; 
554:25; 562:1; 563:15; 
564:4; 585:12 
Additionally 420:11 
address 413:17; 483:15; 
547:13 

addressed 423:5; 
520:21; 528:13 
Addressing 521:2 
adhere 505:19 
adjourned 610:2 
adjustment 568:4 
adjusts 565:24 
administration 509:23; 
510:11: 511:9 
admissible 575:16 
admission 466:13, 18; 
467:1 

adopt 586:12; 604:13 
adopted 449:23, 25; 
480:5; 604:17 
adoption 417:19; 467:4, 
7, 8; 529:8 
ADT 532:17 
advanced 555:25 
advantage 567:4 
adverse 420:4 
| advice 459:3, 23; 534:17 
advise 608:23 
advised 456:17 
advising 459:19 
advisory 538:1 
advocate 448:6; 480:10 
affairs 418:15; 519:10 
affect 567:21; 597:7, 11, 
12 



affected 445:10; 568:25 
affects 561:14 
affidavit 429: 15; 559:22, 
24; 560:3; 575:10,11,13, 
15; 586:23, 25; 587:3,14, 
17; 588:2; 590:7,12, 12, 
17, 23; 592:2, 6,14,18, 
22, 23, 24; 598:4, 5, 10 

affidavits 445:9; 474: 19; 
592:21; 603:11; 607:20 
affirmative 473:3 
affirmatively 483 6 
afield 581:2 
afraid 482:7 
afternoon 416:3; 575:23 
afterwards 524:7 

again 418:10; 434:9; 
489:17; 490:6, 22; 491:14; 
495:20, 23; 496: 15; 
501:21; 504:6; 507:19; 
539:4; 560:21, 22; 564:1; 
572:22; 579:3; 589:1 1; 
590:20; 601: 16 
against 424:9; 461:20; 
536:24; 548:6; 602:4 
AGC 521:23 
age 552:16 
ago 427:9; 430:16; 
436:10; 440:10; 447:25; 
448:3; 495:10, 22; 497:2; 
500:1; 501:7; 538:4; 
552:13; 553:7; 602:8 
agree 414:20; 460:5; 
490:14; 505:17; 544:7, 12, 
13, 15; 571:10; 573:2; 
577:2 

agreeable 609:10, 11 
agreed 414:20 
agreement 482:10, 23, 
25; 483:10; 493:21;495:9 
agreements 480:16; 
489: 15; 603:8 
ahead 420:10; 422:11; 
434:10, 19; 447:1; 450:18; 
460:17; 478:7; 490:8; 
496:24; 504:3, 8; 506:20; 
517:22; 525:20; 538:7; 
551:13; 575:7, 22; 584:21 
AHRA 472:13, 475:4 
air 583:20 
airlines 557:17 
AJB 481:14 
alerted 606:18 
all-out 573:24 
allegedly 433:10, 11, 25; 
434:21 ,25; 435:1, 5, 22; 
437:1 r \ 535:13; 596:10 
alleges 503:13 
allocation 553:12 
allow 453:1; 454:12; 
485:9; 543:6 
allowed 493:10; 531:9; 
556:12 

almost 525:2; 538:4; 
572:7, 8; 587:12 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



Min-U-Script® 



(1) $10,000 - almost 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C REIMERDES, et al 



alone 451:19; 569:20 
along 471:10; 502:13; 
509:2; 588:2 
aloud 530:10 
altered 564:21 
Although 416:17; 
444:13; 448:5; 475:7; 
479:20; 482:5; 493:1; 
498:11; 565:4; 589:8; 
597:11,15 

always 439:21; 462:19; 
479:21; 494:2; 499:9; 
584:4 

Amendment 500:8 
America 432:9; 546:13 
American 44 1 :25; 442: 1 ; 
461:13:552:2, 14,21 
amicable 488:2 
amicably 488:5 
among 432:20; 517:3; 
528:13; 545:4; 577:21 
amount 419:8; 433:2; 
450:19; 451:3, 25; 556:5 
Amy 418:11 
analog 521:16, 16, 22 
analysis 521:9, 9, 11; 
554:7,11,20; 568:15; 
577:8, 14; 582:11; 587:25 
analyze 541:6 
analyzing 439:21; 
514:21 

Angeles 431:15 
Anna 575:23 
Annenberg 593:13 
announced 478:3 
announcement 517:19 
answered 440:2; 44 1 : 5; 
464:9; 473:19; 485:5; 
488:25; 509:16; 527:17; 
536:5; 559:14; 561:6; 
603:12 

anticipate 414:15 
anticipated 428:2; 
575:13; 582:21 
anticompetitive 483: 1 
anticopying 423:11 
antipiracy 423:1 1; 432:8, 
8 

antitrust 482:14,16,19; 
490:7; 553:18; 591:22, 24 
apace 480:12, 12 
apart 474:8; 563:5 
apartment 523:25 
apologize 605:3 
apparent 423:22; 466:7; 
537:7 

appeal 448:19 
Appeals 604:2, 6,10 
appearing 554:1, 2 
appears 474:10; 529:22 
applicable 500:22 
application 484:24, 25; 
4&5:2;51i:18;355:4; 
574:5 



applications 573:12, 15, 
17 

applied 511:13; 553:17 
applies 459:18; 525:17 
apply 531:11; 591:1 
appreciate 414:13; 604:8 
approach 413:21; 455:6; 
460:10; 473:8, 11; 479:21; 
481:12; 520:22; 526:2; 
530:22; 532:15; 535:6; 
591:14; 605:10 
appropriate 416:6; 
436:18; 446:2, 3; 450:13; 
488:3, 16; 499:24,25; 
500:5 

appropriately 536:14 
approval 534:4 

Approximately 418:3; 
553:20; 555:1; 578:9, 11; 
579:10 

April 452:9; 522:11; 
523:4:525:5 
architecture 513:10 

area 430:23; 439:13; 
459:8:494:12; 519:25; 
522:20, 21; 535:24; 
553:18; 599:5 
areas 489:15; 491:23; 
591:25 
argue 499:4 
arguing 488:1 
argument 482:14,20,21, 
22; 483:2; 499:12; 500:21, 
23, 23; 541:7 
argumentative 492:16 

^i-guments^i^ 

482:16 
arise 448:20 

around 418:1;419:15; 
458:17, 18, 23, 25; 469:1; 
470:18; 486:2; 495:24; 
567:2 

arrangement 607:18 
arrangements 497:4; 
535:12,12,14,16,18; 
536:23 

article 462:1; 463:7, 8, 
14; 465:16, 19; 522:5; 
526:12; 528:2, 5,8, 11,21, 
24; 529:10; 530:11; 544:8; 
548:15; 586:11; 594:8 
articles 529:5; 553:21; 
586:9; 594:1; 595:5, 14; 
596:4 

Arts 552:21 
as-needed 495:25 
ASCAP 580:14,21,24 
ASCAP's 581:4 
Asia 431:21; 439:20 

aside 459:11; 564:11; 
593:20; 607:24 
aspects 553:14; 554:7 
aspersions 585:5 

asse r ted 457 ; 23 

assertion 415:19; 455:21 



assertions 520:19 
assessing 576:13 
assignments 591:10 
assistant 595:24 
Associates 551:24; 
579:8; 588:14 
Association 476:3; 
552:14; 585:21; 593:6; 
604:13 

assume 4138; 437:9; 
484:18; 526:21; 555:7, 19, 
21, 23; 556:2, 5; 558:22; 
562:11; 565:19, 20; 
568:12; 606:23 
assumed 590:2 
assumes 437:22; 518:5; 
545:14 

assuming 424:2; 466:12; 
484:11; 501:5; 518:24; 
608:4, 12 

assumption 554:13; 
556:13; 561:8; 568:14; 
576:16, 18; 596:2:606:25 

assumptions 413:3; 
555:5,6, 18; 556:7, 9,14, 
14, 19, 20; 557:1, 25; 
558:21; 559:6; 561:5,8; 
582:24; 596:3 
assurances 584:12 
assures 577:15 
ATLAS 467:14; 576:6; 
609:20 

attached 518:18 
attachments 525:11 
attempt 430:21; 432:23; 
433:10^24 ; 434:24; 435:4 7 
11, 14;450:10; 594:21; 
606:21 

attempting 550:10 
attempts 480:12; 505:25; 
511:21,23 

attend 504:19; 507:12; 
515:3 

attended 481:6; 482:6; 
514:7 

attending 507:9; 549:11 

attention 4 13:9; 440:25; 
441:7; 483:15; 521:2; 
524:4; 532:17; 540:10; 
550:4 

attorney 585:20 
attorney's 482:5,8 
attorney/client 459:14 
attributed 417:16 
AUA 530:24 
audience 563:23 
audio 440:17, 21:441:1; 
442:10,12,13,14,15,16, 
17,19,22, 22, 25; 443:2, 
4:444-3, 4,6, 8,11,12,16, 
18, 20; 445:9, 10, 15; 
448:1; 449:20, 23; 450:1, 
6,8, 9; 470:25; 472:1 5, 19; 
47 3: 1 6; 4 76^593iZ— 
August 475:12 



AUI 514:14 
Australia 461:13 
authentic 484:10, 11, 19 
authenticity 484:21 
author 553:20 
authority 539:20; 
540:20; 541:15 
authorization 490:9, 10, 
12; 539:21; 540:23, 24 
authorize 536:20 
authorized 438:12; 
451:10; 486:13,16, 24; 
487:2; 536:14; 538:25; 
539:1,2, 15; 541:20; 
542:10; 543:10; 562:5; 
565:15:570:3 
authorizes 490:11; 
536:20 

Automatic 521:23 
automobile 583:20 
AV1 514:13, 15 
availability 556:10; 
557:2: 558:25; 562:5, 15; 
565:11; 567:20; 568:16; 
569:1, 10: 570:1; 572:14: 
574:3 

available 437:19, 20; 
447:7, 15;452:19; 472:8; 
496:8; 499:18, 21; 558:23; 
562:13, 21; 564:14, 25; 
566:10; 569:2, 5; 571:8; 
576:23; 577:9,10 
avenues 420:6 
average 578:25 
AVI 518:8 

avoid 416:2 

award 552:14; 581:15. 15 
aware 512:23; 586:11; 
592:25; 593:5 
away 439:22; 486:3; 
514:1; 522:23; 572:21; 
584:1 

AYX 591:16 



B 



B 526:1; 540:14, 15, 19; 
597:10 

B-O-Y-D-E-N 607:23 
B.A 552:6 

back 423:4; 429:15; 
440:10; 446:20; 463:14; 
465:3; 467:23; 469:4, 4; 
493:14; 501:2,18; 506:4, 
7,25; 507:1; 509: 19; 
514:24; 515:4; 522:11; 
523:3; 527:2; 556:24; 
559:4; 576:10; 599:10 
background 413:14; 
498:4; 594:22 
backing 586:19 
backwardly 506:11 
bad 546:15; 556: 18; 

S6SOB; $8^16 

balance 421:22 



balancing 500:7 
Barbara 595:17 
barriered 573:12, 17 
base 451:18; 506:12; 
571:9 

based 453:3; 518:24; 
538:17; 547:8; 560:6; 
564:17; 587:18 
basic 554:20; 557:19 

basically 413:10; 446:19; 
465:13; 476:17; 510:4; 
535:22; 553:8; 561:5; 
583:17 

basis 467:5; 495:25; 
502:18; 507:12; 510:3; 
530:18; 556:13; 557:8; 
560:7; 561:4,6, 13; 
582:24:589:21 
Bates 456:3: 552:13 
Bear 543:8 
! became 495:18 

| become 440:18; 495:1; 
537:7: 569:2; 587:6 
becomes 440:18; 
441:21:563:18; 564:14 
becoming 573:24; 580:3 
began 468:4 
begin 467:19; 468:8; 
557:6 

beginning 419:16; 468:7, 

18; 487:9; 514:7; 542:11 

begins 609:17 

behalf 461:24; 487:21 
I behave 553:11, 11, 13 
j behavior 568:25 
Fbelabor 529:7 

j belief 547:8; 557:5; 
j 570:20 

believes 419:21 

bench 413:21;455:6; 

460:10; 473:8, 11; 481:12; 

483:16; 496:22; 507:21; 

520:22; 526:2; 530:22; 

532:15; 535:6; 539:22; 

591:14; 605:10 

benefit 570:20 

Berkowitz 551:15 

Bernard 461:6 

best 429:24; 432:25; 
449:22; 457:21; 458:8; 
491:3; 516:23; 531:3, 5 
Betamax 500:12, 14,22; 
503:6 

better 436:11; 490:16; 
570:13,13 

beyond 444:18:446:16; 
468:23; 484:16; 488:13; 
525:3; 571:10; 580:13; 
609:17 

big 470:25; 581:15 
bind 584:12 
bit 442:17; 477:7; 481:6; 
491:21; 517:6; 518:25; 
5 19:8, 20; 531:5 , 8 ,^552:4 , 
9; 556:24: 566:13 



Miti-IKScrintCR) 



^OUTH Fk r^DIST'RTCT TTFPO frTFRSTTCCr 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



bizarre 574:7 
BK 544:1 
blank 603:1, 4 
blanket 580:24 
blending 493:3 
blocked 522:20 
board 508:25; 509:2; 
510:18; 551:22, 23; 
579:17 

boarder 535:16 
Boies 592:25 
book 594:3; 600:1 
books 553:20; 593:25; 
600:6 

both 4 17:25; 440:21 ; 
449:11; 489:25; 525:16; 
538:12; 546:8; 548:13; 
550:12; 580:14; 581:19; 
584:15; 591:12; 594:14; 
609: 12, 17 
bottle 423:5; 452:4 
bottom 532:17 

-bougto46 2:22; 56 ^:9; 

603:6 

box 486:18, 19 
boxes 494:1 1 
boy 526:1 

Boyden 607:23; 608:1 2 
breaching 482:1 1 
break 434:12; 467:10, 14; 
479:1; 486:17; 519:20; 
533:7; 575:23 
breaking 462:17; 464:2, 
5; 515:13, 23 
brief 549:20; 601:24; 
609:1,7,8 
briefs 555:16 
bring 4 16:20; 420:22; 
479:24; 576:7 
brings 536:20; 570:19 
broadcasters 564:2 
broadly 491:21 
broken 447:4, 451:8; 
461:25; 462:4,5, 11; 
463:16,19; 464:7,12; 
514:24; 515:7; 516:22; 
518:2; 523:5 
Brother 429:25; 486:5 
Brother's 536:1,8; 
537:12 

Brothers 418:21; 420:5; 
430:11;431:7; 435:11; 
437:15; 439:24; 440:5; 
454:22; 461:1, 5; 462:3, 6, 
10, 23; 463:18: 466:4; 
472:4; 479:25; 486:5, 14, 
16, 24; 487:2, 17,18,21; 
489:14; 492:18; 496:13; 
497:13, 23; 498:1, 15; 
506:15; 507: 10; 508:20, 
22; 509:15, 17, 19; 510:16, 
18, 20. 22; 513:7; 517:25; 
519:19; 529:9; 531:4; 
536:6, 538:18; 547:1 6 
brought 471:7; 504:9, 14; 



512:7, 21, 21; 550:4 
Bruce 607:23 
brute 512:17 
BSD 545:6, 17 
budget 431:3, 7, 9 
build 535 25; 537:11 
built 532:6 
bunch 537:24 
Burbank 497:25 
Bureau 551:22 
burglar 523:17,21,23 
Burns 576:2 
burst 521:24 
business 418:15; 
421:22, 25; 439:15, 19,22, 
23, 25; 448:1; 454:21; 
495:2; 497:4; 519:10; 
544:20; 562:7; 570:11; 
580:25 
busy 520:18 
buy 426:21; 437:14; 
445:23; 486:4, 14; 487:22; 
4$9r^, 10, 536.6, 563.1, 1, 
569:8: 570:2, 3: 572:3,5; 
577:17; 586: 15; 600:1 
buyer 487:11; 490:11; 
541:15; 597:2 
buyers 454:8 
buying 597:8, 11 
buys 488:11 

BX 524:20; 525:25; 
530:21 



C 



cable 494:14; 534:19; 
557:18, 19; 564:2,7; 
565:3,8 

California 431:14, 
497:25; 516:3; 549:25; 
593:14 ; 594:12 

call 420:21; 468:9, 11; 
470:4; 484:8; 520:1,1; 
566:8; 574:18; 583:5,9; 
585:9; 587:6; 590:6; 
599:22; 603:21; 605:9; 
606:22 

called 417:1;442:16, 19; 
444:3; 450:21; 467:17; 
468:12,13,15,15,16,17, 
20; 470:11, 11; 478:1; 
493:11; 503:22; 521:23, 
23; 546:8; 551:5; 557:20; 
573:12; 579:7; 583:17; 
585:8; 587:9; 590:11 
calling 495:15: 584:14 
calls 452:15; 492:14; 
608:22 

came 417:17; 464:25; 
465: 1; 470:6, 7, 11; 471:6; 
476:18; 478:12; 479:4; 
486: 1, 495: 19; 500:1 6; 
506:25; 513:12, 13; 517:7; 
518:14, 15,21:535:9: 
588:12; 599:1 1; 601:19 



Camp 494:5 
can 414:7,-419:4,21; 
420:6; 421:8; 422:13; 
430:1; 431:13; 433:13; 
434:9, 12; 436:17; 437:10; 
438:15, 15, 1 6; 440:10; 
444:9; 445:2; 446:10; 
447:12, 15; 449:13; 
451:22; 452:2; 453:5, 15, 
18;454:12, 19; 455:11; 
456:15; 460:5, 14; 463:24, 
24; 467:9, 20; 468:4; 
472:10; 473:4, 8, 11; 
475:2; 476:8; 480:20; 
481:18; 482:10, 23; 483:8, 
15, 21; 484:20; 485:6, 17, 
22; 486:4, 6, 17; 487:21, 
23; 488:6, 22; 489:3, 4, 10, 
15; 490:14; 491:1, 6, 12, 
19:492:9, 22; 493:3, 8, 22, 
23; 499:1; 500:10, 18, 20; 
501:19; 502:25; 504:6; 
505:15.22:507:20:508:5; 
509:8; 511:3, 10; 512:14; 
51 5:4; 51 7 : 13; 519:12, 18; 
524:6, 25; 526:14; 527:2; 
529:7: 531:5; 534:8; 
535:10, 25; 536:6,9; 
537:11, 21:540:15; 542:3, 
16; 543:3,9; 544:10; 
546:11; 547:22; 548:11; 
551:10; 555:19; 563:6; 
564:22, 24, 24; 566:3; 
567:24; 572:3; 580:17,19; 
584:25; 586:5; 587:3; 
596:13; 598:2; 601:16; 
605: 15, 20; 608:9, 19 
cancel 574:10 
candidate 519:11 
capable 500:2; 536:1; 
537:12 

capacities 555:24; 556:2 
capacity 556:17 
Cape 599:11,14 

capt ure S67: 7, 8 

car 584:17 

Cardwell 461:9, 11,12, 
15, 23; 462:2, 23; 463:2, 6, 
12; 465:7; 466:18, 19, 24, 
25; 467:8; 544:21; 548:14 

Cardwell's 467:1 
care 448:21; 485:4; 
526:21, 21; 574:11 
careful 569.13 
carefully 557:15; 567:18 
Carlton 551:15, 15 
Casablanca 420:25 
case 413:19; 414:6; 
415:21;422:21;427:4; 
429:13,15,18,-459:15, 20; 
460:5; 467:19, 23; 469:6, 
9; 473:5; 474:13; 475:1; 
482:6; 483:2, 3, 24; 
484:14, 23; 489:18; 
497:18; 499:1, 2, 15. 16; 
500:13; 523:8; 534:1 1; 
542:15; 549:24; 553:17, 
25; 554:3, 8, 14; 555:9; 



559:20, 21, 24; 565:17; 
567:3; 573:6, 12; 574:1,1; 
577:6; 578:8; 581:12; 
582:7,12; 584:10; 585:19; 
587:6,15,17,19; 588:9, 
22,25; 589:8, 13; 590:3, 
15; 591:21, 24; 593:3, 10, 
16; 594:12, 20; 600:24; 
601:1,2, 5, 13; 602:2, 4, 5, 
6; 603:9,10,17,21,23; 
604:21, 21; 607:25; 608:1, 

I, 14:609:12 

cases 555:1; 558:14, 15; 
578:12, 15; 579:19; 580:8, 

II, 12; 581:24; 582:1, 3; 
588:25; 594:24; 602:1. 7 
cassette 441:24 
cassettes 601:3 
cast 585:4 

casters 564:3 
catalog 420:21,- 421:6 
cause 447:13; 559:1; 
562:15, 19; 567:11; 
569:14 

^mtsm^jr69rt2 

caveats 414:20 

CBS 580:14,21,22, 24, 

25 

CCA 436:19, 23; 437:5, 
11 

CD 444:9 
CE451:18 

cease 435:16, 20; 548:8 
Center 593:13 
Century 509:3:532:20 
certain 441:16; 444:17; 
472:2; 477:7; 489:1 5; 
491:22; 493:22; 505:17, 
18; 535:18; 579:4, 5; 596:2 

certainly 419:6; 424:1 5; 
441:12; 447:21; 448:24; 
449:12;451:24;459:17; 
471:5; 485:15; 489:22; 
497:7; 537:23; 544:9,16; 
566:1, 13; 569:24:570:16; 
574:2; 577:7; 597:4,9; 
606:22; 607:14 
chair 552:1 

chairman 551:23; 579:17 
chance4l4:19;421:2; 

520:6 

change 477:3; 506.5; 
558:12, 19, 21; 566:14; 
568:7; 579:4 
changed 450:9; 558:9, 
13 

changes 524:14; 565:25 
changing 499:3 
characterize 496:5 
charge 427:10; 499:19; 
510:9,11,11 
charged 599:13 
charitable 608:18 

Charles 551:23; 579 7; 
588:14 

check 467:23; 605: 18; 



606:8; 607:14 
checked 588:13 
chemistry 583:18,19; 
585:8 

chief 497:22 

China 586:9,11,13,14, 

17 

Chinese 511:11, 11 
choice 451:6 
choose 558:13 
choosing 564:12 
chose 501:6 
chosen 451:13; 574:18 
Chris 507:13,15 
Circuit 588:22; 594:15; 
603:17 

circulate 563:19 
circulation 558:3; 567:20 
circumstance 564:19; 
570:24 

circumstances 519:4; 
566:20; 586:23 
"circumstantial 427TTT; 

447:21 

circumvent 499:8; 
523:24; 539:25; 540:17; 
541:21; 555:19 
circumvented 451:9 
circumventing 499:19 
circumvention 499:10; 
500:3,6 

citation 589:16 
cite 604:8 

cited 580:8; 588:22,25; 
589:4,7,12; 594:15 
cites 604:11 
citizens 423:9, 10 
claim 433:25; 448:24, 25; 
467:22; 501:19 
claimed 520:10 

Clark 552:13 

class 602:4 
clause 447:9 
clean 526:7 
clear 444:11;450:17; 
475:19; 481:15;484:22; 
499:2; 519:4; 536:22; 
538:9; 572:1; 583:14; 
603:15; 607:1, 3 
clearly 466:10; 522:19; 
562:10 

CLERK 551:7 
client 459:4; 606:23 
close 467:3; 492:25: 
493:8,19,20 25; 574:20 
closed 474:20; 573:1,7 
closely 589:10 
clue 482:11 
CNN 461:15 
Coalition 480:8, 485:20; 
504:19 

Cod 599:11,14 

code 423:9, 23; 425:16; 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



Min-U-Script® 



(3) bizarre - code 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



426:1, 13, 17; 435:8; 
461:25; 462:4, 11, 17,19, 
19:463:16,19,22; 464:3; 
474:10; 516:3; 517:6, 15; 
518:2; 519:20; 538:15; 
544:8 

codes 447:12; 498:22, 24 
coextensive 541.5 
collaboration 502:16, 
504:11 

colleague 498:23 
colleagues 423:20 
college 514:23 
color 521:24 
combination 423:9, 12; 
508:2 

comfortable 510:8 
coming 421:7; 424:8, 10, 
12; 450:20; 457:4, 5; 
459:22; 468:24; 588:19; 
593:20 

comment 528:23,25; 
554:9: 591:13; 605:4 
commented 609:11 
commercial 548:1; 
573:18; 578:6 
commit 573 8 
committees 507:14 
common 422:18; 518:25; 
576:13; 577:5,8 
companies 470:19; 
476:5, 13; 477:11,21; 
484:6; 493:12: 503:4; 
506:25; 508:24, 25; 509:1, 
7;510:22;511:11, 12, 12; 
521:8; 548:25; 554:15; 
557:9, 15, 24; 562:7; 
563:3; 565:8; 567:4; 
568:20; 569:16, 18; 
570:10, 14, 15, 22; ^72:16, 
16 

company 421:23; 
454:12, 13; 493:16; 
576:18; 579:7,10; 588:14 
company's 557:22; 
568-21 

Compaq 509:6 
compare 541:6 
compatible 505:14; 
506:11 

compensated 534:10 
competed 447:6 
competing 470:8; 568:23 
competition 573:16 
competitive 5 53 16 ; 
572:25 

competitor 573:24 
complaining 584:13, 14 
complaint 555:15; 
559:13,14 

complete 4 13:7; 4 17:3 
complex 439:18; 534:9 
compliant 539 7, 9, 12, 
14; 543: 11 

complicated 495.4; 



505:12; 554:21; 574:2 
comply 505:13 
component 444:7 
compound 434:6 

computer 413:5; 4 19: 12; 
438:22; 453:5; 471:4, 10; 
476:19, 20, 23; 477:1 1, 17, 
21; 478:3, 5; 479:23; 
504:18; 506:13; 509:6; 
531:7; 534:18; 556:1; 
571:3,19, 20; 572:9,10; 
595:24; 600:16; 605:1 
computers 476:25; 
477:4,6; 478:6, 8; 534:22; 
600:19, 22 

concept 427:12; 464:2 

concern 447:20; 468:19; 
471:20; 491:24; 545:4 
concerned 447:19; 
473:4, 18; 474:20 
concerning 436:20; 
474:12; 495:17; 512:8, 22; 
513:7; 570:6; 583:11; 
593:10; 597:1, 24; 601:9, 
19 

concluded 495:3 
conclusion 459:22: 
492:14; 500:17; 557:8; 
573:2; 577:2 

conclusions 524:4, 5,7, 
10, 16; 577:7 
conditions 572:19 
conduct 465.24 
conducting 474:22 
conference 484:8; 
534:21; 605:8; 606:17 
confidence 419:1, 6 
confidential 481:20, 
482:5, 8; 491:24 
confidentiality 482:11; 
484:22 

conflict 493:2 
conflicts 588:14 
conform 560:1 
confused 493 14 
confusion 442:17 
conglomeration 508:23 
Congress 499:8 
Connecticut 574:16 
connecting 534.18 
connection 453:7; 
539:5; 553:4; 570:8; 
578:14,17, 23, 24; 579:1, 
13; 600:16 

conne c tions 4 50:22; 

453:9:534:22 
Connectix 483:3; 
500:13,22 
conscious 433:5 
consider 429:8; 570:19; 
600:25 

considerable 580:22 
consideration 534:8 
considered 446:15 
considering 557:23; 



568:12; 569:8 
consisted 581:4 
consists 466:23; 508:25; 
529:21 

consortium 490:18 
constantly 494:24; 
547:21 

constitutes 488:14 
constraints 558.17 
construed 448:8 
consultants 458:19 
consulting 521:7; 551:24 

consumer 419:11; 
421:3, 4; 470:20; 472:6, 8; 
473:17; 476:2, 5,11,13; 
477:16, 22; 479:18, 23; 
480:10; 485:20; 488:9; 
504:16; 506:12; 508:13; 
509:5:510:7; 531:8; 
538:18, 23, 24; 541:21; 
544:25; 548:18, 20, 23,24, 
24; 549:2; 554:23 
consumers 419:14; 
480:6; 553:11; 570:2, 3 
contact 432:23; 433:10; 
435:12, 14, 21; 550:10 
contacted 585:19, 20 
contained 416:16; 466:9; 
509:25; 544:21; 555:20; 
559:13 

content 494:15; 521:22; 
522:9; 568:13, 17 
contention 497:6 
contentious 494:6 
context 458:14, 15; 
474:13; 539:1 1; 546:15 
continue 417:18; 419:17; 
424:1; 427:5; 439:14; 
475:3; 479:12; 531:20, 21, 
24; 568:20; 569:5; 581:20 
Continued 417:11; 
421:6; 424:2; 443:8; 
467:24; 468:1; 501:22; 
533:11; 547:18; 561:17; 
576:8; 602:10 
continuing 419:7; 510:3 
contract 487:3, 22; 
488:9; 511:25; 565:9 
contracts 486:3 
contrary 576:19 
contributed 566:1 
control 448:7, 9, 13, 17; 
485:11; 521:23; 523:9; 
545:11; 548:12 

controls 523:24 
convenient 555:25 
converged 470:8 
convergence 470:10 
conversation 426:3; 
462:2; 528:20; 532:9; 
587:12; 589:19; 590:9, 24 
conversations 425:24; 
468:18; 470:23, 24; 
476:22; 513:6; 515:12, 22; 
560:6; 599:19 



convert 490:1 
Cookson 497:16, 18,21; 
507:13, 15; 522:12, 13; 
524:9 

Cooper 605:22, 24; 606:1 
copied 555:22; 567:23; 
568:1 

copies 457:15; 488:22; 
492:9, 11; 503:6; 513:17; 
522:3; 535:4; 554:13, 14; 
557:6; 558:2, 17; 562:21; 
563:19; 564:16; 565:12, 
14,15,17,19; 568:19, 24; 
569:9, 11; 570:16, 25; 
577:9, 12, 16 
copy 414:1; 422:25; 
424:24;425:12,21;426:2, 
7,9, 16;428:13, 15; 431:1; 
451:10; 453:5; 455:10, 12; 
457:8; 471:2; 472:6; 
475:25; 478:1; 486:24; 
489:2; 493:11; 504:14; 
514:9, 11, 16, 18; 515:3, 
12, 23; 518:9, 16; 521:16, 
17; 526:7; 529:22: 541:21; 
542:6, 9; 546:2,22; 
547:23; 555:20; 560:10; 
566:10; 598:8 
copying 556:5; 558:22; 
559:7,9; 560:7, 23; 561:5, 
8, 13, 16; 562:12; 563:18; 
564:19, 20; 568:18; 
570:21; 574:7; 576:15; 
589:20,21,25; 590:2,4; 
593:7,23:594:4,9,25; 
595:7, 15; 597:24; 601:3, 
10, 14,20; 604:11 
copyright 422:1, 24; 
423:16; 428:5;432:10; 
487:10, 19; 488:15; 
510:12; 514:5,9; 516:25; 
523:22; 537:3; 538:10; 
559:2; 562:16; 574:10; 
601:2 

copyrighted 422:17; 
448:7; 487:11; 558:23; 
562:13; 568:16 
copyrights 418:18 
corner 532:18 
corporation 579:15, 17 
correctly 499:6 
cost 439:5, 6; 457:7; 
583:12; 603:5 
costs 576:19; 585:11; 
603:1,4 

counsel 415:21;427:11; 
455:11; 503:13; 507:16; 

527:7: 547.13; 551:9; 
583:-i 

counsel's 503:13 
country 431:18; 586:19 
couple 467:1 5; 49 4:8; 
495:21; 571:15; 582:4; 
598:25,599:19 
course 438:1 5; 465:24; 
466:1; 536:17; 554:25; 
563:12; 565:5; 569:17; 
572:18; 573-7; 592:15 



courses 554:24 
COURT 413:1, 22; 
414:12;415:9, 11, 18, 24; 
416:2,8, 23, 24; 417:7, 10; 
418:8, 11, 14; 419:4, 20; 
421:11, 13, 16; 422:5, 8; 
423:3, 5, 22, 24; 424:6, 19; 
427:8, 10, 15; 429:3, 6, 8, 
10; 430:6, 10; 431:25; 
432:3, 7; 433:18; 434:4, 8, 
10, 15, 19; 436:9; 437:23; 
440:2,4, 9, 24; 44 1:3; 
443:3; 444:15, 20, 25; 
445:4,6, 13, 18; 446:4, 7, 
21;447:1;448:2;450:17; 
452:10, 17,20,453:1,6, 
25; 454:20; 455:2, 5,7,11, 
14,20, 23; 456:3, 12,18, 
24; 457:25; 458:3, 11,16; 
459:2,6, 19; 460:1, 8, 11, 
15, 17; 461:16; 462:9; 
463:12, 23; 464:2, 6, 10; 
466:15; 467:7, 11,20,22; 
469:7, 15, 21; 470:2; 
471:13, 17; 473:2, 10, 12; 
474:6; 475:5, 15; 479:9, 
11,13, 16; 481:13, 17,21, 
25; 482:9, 15, 18, 21; 
483:4, 11, 19, 23; 484:3, 7, 
16, 18; 485:5, 18; 486:7, 

19, 23; 487:8, 18,25; 
488:8, 18; 489:1, 6, 8,16, 
19; 490:4, 8, 24; 491:9,16; 
492:1,7, 15; 493:20; 
494:5; 495:16; 496:12, 17, 

20, 24; 497:1, 6, 11; 
498:13, 18; 499:6, 13,16; 
500:9,11,16,19; 501:10; 
502:1,4,20, 23,25; 503:1, 
9, 12, 17,23; 504:3,8; 
505:8; 506:9, 507:2, 4,22; 
508:10, 16; 509:11; 
512:10, 13, 19; 513:3, 5, 
13, 24; 514:2,9; 515:20; 
516:7,10,12,16,18,21; 
517:16; 518:5, 19,23; 
519:3,17, 23; 520:4, 7, 23; 
522:6, 8, 22, 25; 523:6, 10, 
16, 20, 23; 524:2, 6, 13, 
19,21,25; 525:8,10,13, 
16; 526:1, 3,6, 16,21; 
527:6,14,19; 528:13; 
529:17; 530:5,7, 17,23; 
531:1, 16, 21, 24; 532:8, 
13,16,25; 533:5,9; 534:1, 
4,10,14,19; 535:3, 5,7; 
536:16; 537:9,16, 20,25; 
538:6,7,14,22; 539:4,17, 
24; 540:2, 4, 6, 9, 12,15, 
18, 21; 541:2, 6,1 1.18; 
542:3,13, 23; 543:6,13; 
544:1,3:545:2, 8, 15, 20, 
23; 546:4,7, 12, 17, 19, 
25; 547:6, 10, 13; 548:22; 
549:7, 14, 18; 550:16, 19, 
23; 551:2, 9, 11; 553:22; 
554:16, 18; 556:21; 
559:10,19; 560:8,12,19, 
24; 561:1; 562:9; 567:16; 
574:19, 24; 575:3, 7,10, 
11, 17, 21; 576:5, 7; 578:1; 



rnHp« - COURT f41 



Min-U-Scriut® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. RC 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



579:20; 583:16; 584:9,13, 
21, 24; 585:2, 4, 9, 13, 17; 
587:3; 590:21; 591:11, 15; 
592:22; 594:14,18; 
595:10; 596:17; 598:2; 
599:2, 5; 600:5; 601:22; 
603:12,15,16,17, 20, 24; 
-604: l T a y ^5A J 7^8, 10, — 



16, 23; 605:2, 5,7,11,15, 
19,22; 606:2,4,10,13, 
16, 23; 607:1, 6, 11,22, 
24; 608:10, 15, 18,21,24; 
609:3,4,11,15,19, 23 
Court's 535:10; 589:9 
courtroom 425:17; 
432:13, 17; 534:2 
cover 466:23 
covered 415:22;455:1 
CPPM 449:21, 22, 25; 
450:7 

CPTWG 514:19 
crack 432:24; 437:20; 
448:8; 498:21; 544:8; 
545:6, 12, 17; 547:20 
cracked 430:20; 448: 16, 
17; 449 3, 12, 24; 518:7 
cracking 432:19; 433:1; 
447:11;519:8 

create 422:2; 503:3; 
527:10 

created 4 54: 16; 503:2,5; 
504:22; 590:12,23; 
593:21 

creates 428:10; 485:7 
creating 526:24,25 
creation 572:17 
credit 609:14 
crime 523:18 
criminal 459:19, 24 
criticizing 572:2 
cross 455:1 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

424:20; 466:8; 468:1; 
556:22; 578:2; 581:3; 
583:21; 585:2 
cross-examine 419:4 
crown 420:21; 478:22 
crucial 568:8 
crummy 523:17 
Cryptome 534:3 

CSS 417:20; 418:19; 
436:20; 437:11; 447:12; 
449:3,12,16,18,19,19, 
24; 450:1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 24; 
453:15, 19; 456:22; 457:3, 
7, 16; 461:24; 464:7; 
476:16; 480:5; 485:8; 
490:25; 491:4, 18; 493:5, 
9, 9; 498:20; 302:11, 12, 
14; 503:3; 504:9; 507:25; 
509:9, 25; 510:12, 13; 
511:5; 514:17, 24; 515:7, 
14, 24; 516:11, 13, 22; 
517:6; 519:1, 9, 20; 521:9, 
9; 522:18; 523:8; 524:14; 
529:5; 532:22; 533:3; 
537:1,5; 538:9; 539:11; 



541:22; 543:21; 545:12; 
547:19 
cum 552:6 
cumulative 464:10 
current 418:5; 439:22; 
490:1; 578:6 

jcurren tlv44D: 1 3; 

492:24; 568:9 
curve 596:21,23 
curves 596:25; 597:3 
cut 420:12, 13; 563:4 
cuts 535:18 



D 



damage 419:24: 447:20, 
21, 22; 448:1; 500:3; 
560:23; 581:10 
damages 581:11; 584:6 
date 466:1; 470: 15; 
472:17; 549:23 
dated 514:22; 516:18: 
521:25:525:5 
dates 517:2 
David 494:5; 592:25 
day 4 17:6; 430: 12; 463:7; 
484:9; 512:3; 542:5; 
584:8; 606:13, 19; 607:2, 
4, 11; 609:1 5, 19 
days 415:12, 17; 467:16; 
512:19; 587:8; 591:4; 
599:19; 606: 12; 608:3 
dead 582:2 
deal 413:25; 432:1; 
456:15; 459:15; 466:5; 
470:3; 478:21; 498:15, 19; 
499:1; 500:15, 24; 506:16; 
517:3; 534:13; 535:22; 
536:11; 563:19; 574:11; 
598: 15; 600:6 

dealing 460:14; 499:1 5; 
500:4; 523:22, 23; 594:3, 
9; 605:23 
deals 600:1 
dealt 560:6 

Dean 460:21, 24; 495:21; 
507:15 

debate 487:9,12,16; 
499:23 

December 451:15; 
452:8; 466:2 

decide 454:12; 478:5; 
483:4; 487:13; 570:18; 
609:5 

decided 450:4; 458:7; 
581:15; 586:12; 588:3 
decides 5 1 1 ; I 

deciding 458:15; 459:9; 
564:6 

decision 417:20; 433:5, 
458:1 1,24; 474:1; 549:3, 
6; 555:14; 558:13; 564:8, 
17, 20 

decisions 565:1, 567:21; 
568:8 



declaration 416:5, 17; 
417:6; 554:18; 559:21; 
560:17; 562:3; 571:6; 
572:23; 574:23; 575:4,8; 
576:10; 594:20; 595:18 

declarations 416:13, 19; 
554:10; 555:12; 560:1; 



588:3 

declaratory 423:25: 
467:22 

declared 424:5 
decline 440:15 
deconstructed 496:9 
decrease 439:25; 
441:15; 563:14; 569:24 
decrypt 414:25; 505:4 

decrypted 414:23; 
415:1; 555:21; 567:21 
decrypting 51 1:4 

DeCSS4l4:2;4l5:l; 

418:6; 419:19, 25,25; 
420:1;421:9;422:2: 
423:5, 23; 424:2, 25; 
425:13;426:21;427:1, 18; 
428:3, 10; 429:22; 430:1, 
20;431:1;432:20, 24; 
433:1, 12, 21; 434:1; 
435:1,6, 8, 22; 437:20; 
445:10; 450:3; 452:5, 12, 
13:453:5,11,13,16,19, 
22,23:454:4,22, 24; 
457:15;458:15; 492:18; 
496:9; 501:5: 506:18; 
521:11; 523:4,7; 526:25; 
527:9, 10; 530:12, 13; 
546:2,22, 24; 547:19, 20, 
23: 548:8; 550:1, 5, 9; 
554:14; 555:19; 556:10; 
557:2; 567:11; 596:1 1; 
597:17 

deem 512:13 
deencrypt 434:1; 
435:22;454:17 
deencrypted 414:3; 
426:22; 427:18; 431:1,1; 
433:12, 21;434:22;435:1, 
6; 457:10; 596:10 
defendant 423:6; 424:6; 
459:20; 536:24; 561:2 
defendant's 4 16: 12; 
459:21;481:11,14; 
555:12 

defendants 4 16: 19, 21; 

455:14; 467:12; 524:20; 
530:21, 24, 25; 554:10; 
574:15,18; 575:5; 581:6; 
588:3; 591:16 

defense 418:18; 429:1 3; 
499:19; 513:1: 562:9; 
607:25, 25 

define 427:6; 524:25 
defined 448:9, 1 1 
defining 4 13: 11 
definition 448:13, 16; 
472:7; 539:8 
degradation 565:21, 
566:6, 8 



degree 500:13 
degrees 552:4 
delay 493:2 
delayed 445:11 
deliberately 563:18 
demand 420:7, 11; 
472^8;3960l^ 



demanded 450:25 
demonstrate 484:20 
Dennis 551:15 
depend 573:25; 577:7 
depending 566:19 
depends 569:13 
deposed 429: 18; 497:18; 
559:4; 608:8 
deposition 416.11; 
442:9; 474:17; 482:6; 
498:10; 512:3; 526:9, 11, 
13, 20; 527:18; 528:1,4, 
15; 559:11, 16; 560:5,8; 
562:2: 569:25; 576:4; 
578:13; 579:3: 580:5; 
582:6; 586:23; 598:19, 22, 
24:599:8,9, 14; 602:3; 
603:2 

depositions 498:8; 
507:19 

describe 436:6, 22; 
445:2; 509:22; 557:12; 
580:21 

described 445:17; 
580:11; 603:13 
designated 521:3 
designating 576:3 
designation 428:20,23 
designed 434:16; 583:21 
desire 608:25 
desired 534:13 
desist 435:16, 20; 548:8 
desktop 571:19 
desktops 586:1,4,6,6 
despite 544:19 
detail 557:12; 573:13; 
603:13 

determination 424:13 
determine 435:21; 
462:23; 540:24; 567:12 
determining 423:25 
develop 450:11; 504:4; 
505:25 

developed 432:12; 
447:11; 502:14; 504:11; 
505:21 

developer 502:11 
developers 573:19 
developing 449:4; 

472:11 

development 419:9; 
426:9; 432:18; 472:5; 
572:24 

device 447:10; 450:23 
Diamond 603:23, 24 
differ 541:7 
difference 427:1 1 ; 



498:18; 596:14 
different 422:22, 23; 
438:6,22, 24; 444:9, 22; 
447:5; 450:7; 459:25; 
460:4;485:11;492:16,17; 
493:2; 500:19; 505:22; 
526:12; 546:15; 566:16, 
1 6r56T^,~ 6, 6, 22; 583 . 6, - 
592:17; 600:20 
differently 566.5 
differs 566:19 
difficult 422:20; 423:8; 
451:6, 17; 462:18; 506:22; 
540:8; 554:21; 562:25; 
566:3; 588:1,7 
difficulty 447:13; 457:15 
digital 418:18, 22; 420:3, 
5; 422:1, 1; 428:5, 6; 
449:10; 450:21, 22, 23, 25; 
470:22; 478:14, 17, 18; 
492:25; 493:7, 10,22.24; 
495:5,8, 18; 497:14, 15; 
498:2, 15; 593:6 
direct 4 1 4:1; 4 1 7. 1 1 ; 
420:7;424:24;425:1, 11, 
15, 20, 25; 426:19, 24; 
427:6, 11, 12, 24; 428:18; 
430:24;431:2;436:14; 
446:17; 448:4, 23; 467:1; 
475:17; 532:17; 534:18; 
576:8; 583:14; 608:3, 13 
Directing 524:4 
direction 584:17 
directly 567:8: 569:23; 
572:5 

disadvantages 573. 17 

disagree 459:5,6, 7; 
500:21 

disagreement 562:4 
disagrees 500:9 
discharged 473 4 
discovery 469:11; 
474:21; 497:9; 501:2; 
507:19 

discuss 430:7; 458:13; 
485:17; 588:6 
discussed 514:18; 
522:15; 580:14; 582:5; 
589:25; 609:22 

discussing 458:17; 
470:14, 19; 482:9; 501:18 
discussion 414:15, 16; 
415:3;451:4; 476:15, 16; 
514:19, 20; 522:13, 17; 
524:9, 11; 545:9:603:2 

discussions 475 24; 

476:14;480:7;481:6,7; 
493:5, 506:21; 514:16; 
515:6 

disk 446:8; 468:12, 20; 
470:8:488:12, 14; 489:10, 
12, 14; 536:2,6; 537:13; 
543:9; 603:1 
disks 436:24; 437:1; 
446:8; 488:10; 505: 15; 
506:10; 516:13; 543:10 
Disney 471.6 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, PC 



Min-U-Script® 



(5) Court's - Disney 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Disney's 453:11 
displaced 576:15 
dispose 584:7 
dispute 604:10, 12, 14 
disqualification 474:24 
disqualify 474:10 
disregard 579:23 
disregarded 449:24; 
579:20; 580:1; 581:7, 16, 
18 

dissemination 418:6; 
419:25; 420:1; 421:6, 9; 
423:22 

distribute 418:21; 419:7; 
433:11;477:16 
distributed 567:13 
distributing 562:8; 
568:10,21 
distribution 420:5; 
422:3; 548:12; 555:2; 
557:17; 565:13; 567:18; 
568:19; 570:17 
District 603:17; 604:2 
DiVX'ing 429:22 
- D MCA.4 23:9; 482:18; 
483:3; 488: 15; 490:9; 
500:20; 523:22; 535:14, 
15; 536:12 

document 425:9, 10; 
426:12, 20;428:1,9, 13, 
15,19,19,22,22, 24; 
429:1; 433:23; 434:14, 20, 
24; 435:3; 452:2; 455:19, 
22; 456:25; 457:18, 24; 
460:12, 18; 461:14; 
462:22; 465:22; 466:7; 
481:23, 24; 482:10; 
483:12,13,18, 20,22; 
485:13, 15; 491:24; 492:1; 
514:13, 22; 515:1, 9; 
516:2; 518:8, 19,2^; 
520:20, 24, 24; 525:5, 23; 
526:8,10,22; 527:8; 
528:23; 529:18; 531:2; 
560:2,4 

documentation 428:4 
documents 416:12, 21; 
435:9; 445:21; 456:5, 9; 
466:2; 481:15, 22; 495:17, 
19; 498:14; 507:19; 518:9, 
17; 520:3, 4,8, 11, 12, 15, 
18; 590:15; 592:20; 
603:10 

dollar 572:16 
dollars 577:11,12 
domain 418:18, 22; 

420:3; 470:22; 495:8 
donate 509:24; 510:1 
done421:19;495:10; 
500:1 1; 501:3; 503:20; 
512:11; 538:3; 543:7; 
544:18; 558:10; 582:4,6; 
591:5; 599:23; 606:16; 
607:15 
door 523:17 
double 466:15, 16, 20 
down 416:6; 424:8, 10, 



12, 14; 434:12; 471:8; 
477:18, 24; 486:17; 
511:14, 15, 16; 535:18; 
548:9; 563:3; 567:24; 
599:11,14 

downloaded 425 16,21; 

426:1,13,17 

downloading 550:6 

downs 435:18 

Dr 569:25; 570:13; 571:6; 

572:22; 574:19 

draft 456:23; 457:18, 20; 

476:18; 534:15; 590:6, 8 

drafted 456:10; 458:1 

drafting 590:17 

drafts 416:5, 13, 16,22; 

520:12 

Drang 520:14 
drawn 529:24 
drawn-out 494:7 

drive 555:24; 583:20 

drives 451:20 

driving 489:20; 583:22 

dropped 580:24 

due 493:2; 498:23: 583:6; 

587:5,7 

duly 417:2; 551:6 
duplicate 429:21 
during 468:9; 578:10; 
590:22; 591:5 
Dutch 552:2 
DV 544:8 

DVD 417:19, 21, 22, 25; 
418:3, 20; 419:9; 420:4, 
12;421:2,21;425:21; 
426:21, 25, 25; 427:17; 
431:1; 436:19, 23; 437:5, 
11; 438:16, 24; 439:20, 21; 
440:1,7,11,13,15,18; 
441:3, 9, 13, 18; 442:10, 
12,13,13,15,16,17,19, 
22, 22, 25; 443:1, 4; 444:3, 
4,7, 8,11,11,16,17,17, 
20; 445:9,10,14,16; 
449:20; 450:6; 451:13, 19; 
453:19; 454:9, 9,17; 
468:8, 9,13,15, 16; 470:4, 
6, 7,10; 472:5; 482:18; 
483:8; 486:5, 14,17,25; 
487:2; 489:3, 4, 23, 24; 
490:1,19,19; 491:1,5, 5, 
11,11,12,19; 496:4; 
505:2,3,13,14,22; 506:2, 
4; 517:3, 4; 519:20; 
530:15; 536:1; 537:12; 
538:19, 24; 541:16, l6y 
542:6, 6,9,9,16, 543:1,2, 
4,9, 20; 555:20; 503:12; 
564:14,18; 565:21; 
567:24; 568:1; 570:1, 2, 4, 
18, 23, 23; 571:14; 572:3, 
5, 11; 596:7; 597:6; 603:1, 
4 

DVD-CCA 454:14, 18; 
481:24; 482:4, 7, 7,25; 
484:1, 4, 9; 485:1, 23; 
487:4, 490:18; 502:6, 9, 



21; 503:2; 504:21; 508:1, 
3,23;510:18, 24; 511:1, 
13; 512:3; 518:15, 16,19, 
20; 536:3, 10; 537:14; 
538:19; 539:15; 542:22 
DVDs 417:17; 437:10, 16, 
18; 438:2, 10, 20; 439:10; 
442:2; 446:15; 447:3, 13; 
451:15; 454:8, 13; 474:2; 
482:24; 488:22; 490:11; 
492:19; 495:6; 503:5; 
517:7; 521:19; 527:10; 
541:21; 546:2, 22, 24; 
547:23; 557:18; 558:3, 3, 
6, 23; 562:20, 22; 563:3,4, 
5, 5; 564:20; 567:11,21; 
568:19, 20; 571:10; 
582:14, 17, 20; 586:15; 
597:2, 11; 601:3 
DX 525:24 



earlier 464:1 2; 475:9; 
516:12; 564:5,25; 568:6; 
603:13; 605:4 
early 469:5; 470: 12: 
526:23 
earn 579:10 
easily 523:5; 532:6 
East 552:1,3 
easy 506:22; 540:9; 
568:18; 588:6 
Econometrics 552:17; 
553:4 

economic 447:19; 462:5; 
501:4; 544:11, 12, 15; 
551:23; 552:14; 553:25; 
554:7,11,20; 568:15; 
574:14; 577:8, 14; 587:25 
economics 495:10; 
551:16, 24; 552:3, 7, 20; 
553:2,5; 565:24; 588:5, 6, 
13; 590:25 
economist 588:8 
economists 552:15; 
566:8; 588:16; 599:22 
Ed 461:2 

effect 420:4; 495:5; 
541:8; 564:4; 565:5, 6, 7, 
13; 566:13; 581:6; 593:6, 
22; 604:11 

effective 447:10; 448:7, 
17; 496: 15 
effectively 448:13 
Effectiveness 522:20; 
531:15 

effects 563 7, 15; 576: 13; 
594:9 

effort 495:23 
efforts 423:11; 432:8; 
572:23 

eight 430:20; 551:25 
Einhorn 569:25; 570:13; 
571:6; 572:22; 595:3, 13 
either 427:18; 436:24; 



459:16; 470:12; 483:23; 
497:12; 501:21; 508:2; 
558:5; 561:7; 563:4; 
564:9, 22; 568:4; 578:20; 
583:10; 584:16,17; 585:9; 
593:7; 599:23 
elaborate 581:11 
electricity 542:19 
Electronic 415:20; 
477:23; 534:22 
electronics 41 91 1; 
470:20; 476:2, 5, 6, 13; 
479:19, 23; 485:20; 
504:16; 506:12; 508:13; 
509:5; 510:7; 531:8; 
544:25; 548:18, 20,23,24, 
24; 549:2 

else 459:11; 464:18; 
467:2; 469:22; 476:1; 
487:14; 488:12; 504:18; 
542:16; 545:24:573:16; 
575:18:604:18, 24 
embodies 459:3 
embrace 478:16 
emphasize 421:25 
^mpiricaiiy^>97:4 
employee 525:19; 529:9 
enabled 571:9 
encouraging 570:15 
encrypt 478:4; 480:3, 19, 
23 

encrypted 425:13; 
427:1;454:15, 16; 478:9; 
505:4; 512:18; 516:13 
encrypting 451:16 
encryption 417:17; 
418:19; 425:1;436:24; 
446: 14; 447:2, 3, 6, 12; 
449:4,6, 8, 19, 23; 450:10, 
12, 13;451:8, 8,15,21; 
464:5; 470:14; 471:15, 18; 
474:2; 478:13; 492:22; 
493:22; 505:1; 506:5, 10; 
510:9; 514:21; 515:19; 
517:6, 15, 24; 519:1, 20, 
25; 522:1; 523:13; 531:5, 
9, 12; 532:4, 7, 10 
end4l7:24;4l9:14; 
442:4, 5, 7; 484:9; 507:22; 
535:22; 608:14; 609:1 
enforcement 423:9, 13, 
14; 513:2 
engage 545:9 
engaged 474:12,475:10 
engaging 458:23, 25 
engine^r53: TT7 TO^ 
engineer 498:5 
engineers 477:24 
engines 453:22; 454:3 
enjoin 424:7 
enjoined 419:25; 420:1; 
421:10 

enormous 551:11 
enough 439:4, 453:21; 
467:3; 473:2; 475:11; 
509:24; 510:1, 2; 549:15; 



555:25; 591:11 
ensue 559: 13 
entering 568:12 
entire422:12; 448:12; 
485:12; 503:5:529:18; 
586:4; 598:9 
entirely 413:9; 474:14; 
488:2; 555:3; 559:23 
entities 502:6 
entitled 448:6, 25; 
456:13; 501:8 
entity 517:10 
entry 573:12, 18 
environment 477:17 
envoking 448:15 
equal 584:1 
equally 419:13: 494:6 
equipment 534:19, 20; 
539:7,9,12,14 
equivalent 566:4, 10; 
575:3,19; 583:18 
Eric 576:2 

erroneous 443:5; 576:18 

error 576:13:57 7: 5,7 

escapes 570:20 
essentially 552:15; 
562:24; 563:1 1:581:13, 
14 

established 501:11; 
566:2 

estimate 442:3; 494:7; 
578:18, 19; 597:4 
etc 510:10 

Europe 431:19; 489:11 
evaluating 547:21 
even 414:24; 420:11; 
424:1 1; 444:9, 18; 466:11; 
473:16; 477:17; 484:8; 
488:2; 489:21; 517:23; 
518:1; 519:7; 536:9; 
542:13; 565:9 
event 558:7; 571:10, 24; 
577:13; 601:12; 604:21 
everybody 413:4; 
414:12;432:10; 472:21; 
500:13; 543:8; 559:22; 
572:7,8, 9; 605:5 
everyone 429:24: 
453:14; 477:7, 14; 511:10 
everywhere 478:24 
evidence 437:22; 
465:22; 466:6; 467:12; 
474:21,23, 24; 483:14; 
4B4^3s 4 99:2; 518:6; 
520:1; 525:4; 529:10; 
530:21; 543:1-' 

exact 457:4; 463:4, 9; 
480:16; 481:3; 517:2; 
594:15 

exactly 462:14; 465:12; 
466:4; 470:7; 536:12; 
537:3; 550:10; 555:17; 
583:14,15; 588:7 

EXAMINATION 417:11; 
427:24; 436:14; 468:4; 



Disney's - EXAMINATION (6) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



v. 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



543:17; 576:8; 608:4 
examined 414:9 
examiner 561:2 

example 477:9; 535:25; 
556:16; 576:17 
exceed 586:3 
Except 541:4; 566:25; 
572:4 

exception 465:23, 24; 
466:3 

exceptionally 423:20; 
474:7 

exchanged 603 3 
exclude 546:8 
excludes 482:25 
exclusively 569:3 

Excuse 419:3; 436:2; 
439:18; 465:9; 471:13; 
477:19; 480:20; 488:17; 
493:13; 495:13; 507:24; 
514:3; 525:21; 531:22; 
539:18; 547:3; 587:23; 
601:16 

excused 550:19,22; 
«" 605:6 
executive 461:12; 
497:22; 518:9 
executives 545:5, 9; 
549:3 

exhausted 601:22 
exhibit 445:1, 2; 455:4; 
460:7, 9; 467:12; 481:14; 
484:22; 518:8; 524:20; 
525:8; 530:21, 24; 532:17; 
543:23, 25; 591:16, 18 
exhibition 565:4; 567:6; 
568:6 

exhibits 607:19 
existed 501:6; 547:7 
existence 485:23; 486:1, 
1 

existing 420.25 
exists 422:19; 427:22; 
448:14;482:13 
expect 439:13; 524:21; 
563:13; 569:4; 602:5; 
609:13 

expectation 440:16; 
461:24; 462:15, 18; 464:1; 
558:1; 608:25 
expectations 609:18 

expected 441:5; 462:3, 
11; 463:16, 19; 464:7; 
556:3; 558:19; 582:18; 
607:12,14 
expedition 474:22 
expensive 419:11 
experience 538:17; 
564:12; 584:20 
expert 423:7; 494:1 2; 
547:9; 553:22; 556:12; 
559:18, 22; 574:14,15; 
581:17,18; 583:18,25; 
585:8; 587:6; 591:22; 
600:21,25 



expertise 599:6 
experts 507:14; 519:24; 
554:10; 555:13; 559:20; 
588:3 

explain 489:8; 565:16; 
577:4 

explains 465:24 
explanation 489:19; 
490:4 

explode 490:1 
exploit 557:11 
exploitation 572:19 
explore 446: 10; 448:25 
export 531:10; 532:11 
exported 531:9 
exposed 566:21 
exposes 558:20 
express 475:11; 598:9; 
604:3 

expressed 471:20; 
544:8, 12, 21; 545:10 
extending 474:16 
extends 525:19 
extensive 573:7 
extensively 553 23 
extent 417:4; 423:24; 
435:17;438:9; 441:16; 
458:16, 18; 467:6; 530:18; 
534:17; 540:25; 558:12; 
568:2 

extract 557:21; 568:21 
extraordinarily 473:18 
extremely 450:24; 494:4 
extremes 574:9 
eyes 482:5, 8 



facilitate 431:12 
fact 415:14; 437:18; 
445:11:447:11, 14; 449:3; 
489:13; 505:20; 506:24; 
529:23; 531:23; 532:3; 
534:11; 549:23; 550:3,4, 
8; 561:9; 564:11,17; 
577:14; 580:23; 581:6; 
582:25; 583:1; 585:22; 
588:16 

factored 540:23 
factors 421:24 
facts 413:5, 18; 437:22; 
443:6; 459:22; 487:17; 
488:6, 8; 489:22; 490:14, 
15, 15; 518:5; 545:14; 
583:10 

factual 488:18; 584:8, 10 
faculty 552:24,24 
fair 440:16, 20; 452:12; 
578:10; 601:5 
fairly 517:22, 562:22; 
566:22; 589:9 
faith 545:18 
false 529:13 
familiar 436:1; 439:4; 



457:19; 481:8; 493:4; 
498:2 

fantasy 570.7 
far441:21;463:21;473:4; 
474:16, 20; 536:17; 
545:21; 571:10; 578:8; 
581:2; 597:17 
fashion 461:22; 571:7 
fast 586:7 
faulting 520:17 
favor 565:2 
favorably 580:15, 17; 
589:5,7,14 
fax 598:5 
faxed 598:8 
Fayder 593 9 
FCC 494:13 

feature 444:19: 478:6, 8; 
562:8 

features 491:1, 19 
February 452:9 
Fed.Supp.2d 413:1 1 
Federal 494:17 
fee 509:22; 510:11; 
511:10, 19, 24; 602:6, 7 
feed 534:4 
feel 535:23 
fees 511:24 
fellow 552:21, 22 
fellows 456:3; 552:23 
fellowship 552:25,25 

felt 472:3; 474:3, 5; 
477:11; 584:11 

few 51 4:7: 552: 12; 601:25 
fewer 441:22 
field 553:3,6,6 
fields 553:1 
fifth 516:7 

figure 439: 19; 456:4; 
467:15; 562:25; 577:21 
file 416:15, 16, 18; 
429:15; 484:1; 591:10 
filed 549:23, 24, 25; 
593:3, 5,10,13 
files 470:17; 518:15, 16 
fill 607:2 

film 420:16, 19; 426:16; 
430:25; 433:1 1,20; 486:5; 
565:12; 567:13 
films 427:17; 433:20; 
441:22; 478:16, 17, 17; 
543:20; 559:2; 562:8, 13, 
16; 569:11,12 

finalize 480: 14 
finalized 494:8 
finalizing 480:15; 493:21 
finally 471:6; 573:25 
financial 576:13 
financing 41520 
find 456:13; 465:3; 467:4; 
470:16; 487:16; 501:8; 
535:4; 539:3; 594:21; 
604:10;605:11,20,22, 24 



findings 4 13: 1 0,573:5, 
8; 580:23 
fine 485:13 
finish 468:5; 492:5; 
533:7; 587:24; 607:9, 12 
finished 417:15; 497:10; 
509:11; 517:10; 587:22 
finishing 59113 
firm 416:12; 521:7; 
551:24; 554:1; 597:21 
firms 553- II 
first 415:4; 418:17, 17, 
24; 421:4; 429:4; 439:8; 
442:19; 448:3; 451:21; 
459:10; 460:18; 461:17; 
469:2; 470:6, 13; 479:20, 
21; 480:1; 495:18; 500:8; 
502:14; 508:16; 516:4, 13, 
22; 517:7; 529:5; 530:11; 
549:23, 24; 557:17; 
566:22; 570:15; 573:5; 
574:14; 575:22; 578:10; 
583:17; 585:20; 587:10, 
12; 588:10; 590:6,8,11, 
17; 592:5; 598:4,6; 
607: 11; 609:21 
fish 497:11 
Fisher 551:3, 4,8; 
559:24; 560:2, 5, 17; 
562:11; 565:1 1:566:15; 
574:19; 576:10; 578:4; 
586:22; 591:21 
Fisher's 583:14 
fist 521:3 
fit 574:13 

five 415:5; 428: 1 1 ; 432:3; 
436:1 2; 439:2; 454:23; 
467:18; 493:12; 503:18; 
504:4; 525:1; 534:15; 
560:18; 578:25; 582:21, 
21; 583:10, 10; 584:25 
five-year 421:19, 20; 
427:24; 428:25; 440:5 
fix 449:15;451:23;452:1 
flow 419:24 

focus 479:20, 21;481:18 
focused 536:16 
focuses 421:20 
focusing 536:14 
folks 44 1:7; 606: 17 
follow 424:3; 437:17; 
576:21 

following 527:18; 564:5 
follows 417:2; 551:6; 
572:23; 576:12; 592:8 
force 512:18; 558:15 
Ford 552:23 
foreseeable 571:16; 
584:7 

Forget 456:24; 595:18 
form 4 18:7, 8; 422:4, 5; 
434:2, 4, 5; 437:23; 
450:16; 462:8, 9; 472:25; 
491:8, 10, 14, 16; 498:16; 
508:9, 10; 518:8; 522:7, 8; 
527:6; 545:7, 13, 19; 



547:15, 18; 556:18: 
567:14,16; 587:19; 
594:18 

format4l7:21;4l8:22; 

419:8; 441:24; 543:21; 
567:12 

formats 470:8 

former 475:10 

forms 553:13; 566:25; 
568:4 

forth 566:21 
forward 557:1 1; 581:11 
found 450:3; 548:5; 
573:11; 581:14 
Foundation 415:20; 
418:9:421:15;446:5,8; 
461:18; 467:3; 483:17; 
527:5; 547:12; 552:23, 24; 
595:9; 598:1; 600:3; 
601:21 

four 436:10; 529:3, 4, 20, 
25; 600: 18; 606: 12; 608:3 
fourth 461:9; 516:2; 
606:13 

Fox 509:3; 532:18, 18,20, 
21 

frames 494:9, 16 
France 489:4, 25 
Franklin 551:3,4,8; 
560:17 

free 422:17; 439:6; 499:7; 
558:2, 24; 562:5, 14,22; 
563:19, 22; 564:15, 19, 19, 
25; 565:12, 14; 566:10; 
567:20, 25; 568:6, 16,23; 
569:3,5,10, 18, 23; 570:1, 
25; 572:21; 573:20; 577:9, 
12, 16; 584:1 
freely 571:8 
Friday 467:19; 606:15 
friend 542:10 
front 475:8; 540:16; 
555:18 

Frontier 415:20 
function 459:12; 488:15 
functioning 459:8 
fundamental 413:4; 
452:18 

fundamentally 441:21; 
457:6; 490:14; 500:16 
funded 485:20 
furnished 522:10 
further 423:2, 13; 446:11; 
473:15, 23; 483:14; 
535:20; 550:15, 18; 
563:21; 577:24:603:14 
furthermore 520:7 

future 420: 13; 423 1; 
440:14; 447:16; 448:23; 
451:23; 501:4; 548: 12; 
556:3, 16; 558:8; 571:16; 
584:3 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



Min-U-Script® 



(7) examined - future 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



G 



Gain 521:23; 548:1; 
570:4; 571:23, 23 
games 445:22 
GARBUS 413:21, 24; 
414:5, 10, 13;415:8, 10, 
19,23;4l6:l;4l8:7,9, 13; 
419:2,4;421:11, 12,14; 
422:4, 6; 424:19, 21; 
427:5; 428:17, 21, 24; 
429:7, 9; 431:25; 432:1, 5, 
7; 433:17; 434:8, 9,12,17; 
436:6,7,9, 13; 440:11; 
441:3,8;444:1;445:1,7, 
8; 446:9, 10, 19, 23; 447:1, 
2, 18;449:2;452:11; 
454:19; 455:6, 11; 456:12, 
16:459:4,5,8, 24; 460:3, 
10, 17; 461:16; 465:22: 
466:11, 16; 467:9, 24; 
468:2; 469:7, 8, 13, 16,21; 
471:13:473:3, 6^8, 1 1 , 14; 



526:6; 554:17; 561:14; 
587:17 

general 476:25; 512:17, 
17; 553:15; 554:6; 572:2 
generalizations 556:17 
generalized 556:19 
generally 558:15, 592:8; 
600:17 

generated 534:6 
genie 423:4, 5; 452:4 
gentleman 498:11 
gets 414:19; 453:16; 
511:1; 567:23 
giant 574:3 
Given 423:22; 439:13; 
445:23, 25; 470:16; 485:2; 
509:13; 520:19; 529:17; 
532:21; 552:14; 556:9, 15; 
557:1, 25; 563:12; 566:4; 
589: 13; 602:3 
gives 421:2; 434:20; 
534:19 



550:17,18, 23, 24; 551:2, 
3; 559:10, 11, 21; 560:17, 
20; 562:1; 574:24; 575:1; 
576:1,7,9; 577:24; 578:1; 
583:13; 584:4,11,19; 
590:18; 591:8,9,11; 
594:16,17; 595:9, 23; 
596:16; 597:25; 598:16; 
600:3; 601:21; 603:23; 
604:24, 25; 605:7, 16, 17, 
20; 606:3, 6; 607:2, 5, 17, 
23; 608:11, 19, 23; 609:6, 
7,9, 13, 24,25 
Gold's 481:22; 529:17 
Good 417:13, 14; 448:8; 
474:3; 477:13; 479:25; 
498:19, 20; 544:20; 
545:10; 563:19; 566:3, 4; 
571:20; 574:1 1; 584:24; 
598:15, 18 

government 459:22; 
494:17; 532:5 
government's 553 24 
gi«febfrry^tt4T8 
granted 540:25,25; 
584:7 

great 4 13:25; 4 18:25; 
420:20; 421:20; 422:15; 
459:15:480:1; 500:15; 
534:13; 572:15 
greater 457:12 
greatest 585:8 
greatly 420:15 
Gross 415:19 
ground 546.4, 13; 549:15 
grounded 422:17, 18 
grounds 446:18; 452:15; 
463:11; 525:7, 14, 15; 
527:12; 529:11; 530:4,7; 
531:14; 532:24; 538:21; 
547:11; 549:13; 559:4; 
561:16; 581:8 
group 431:11;433:3; 
476:9, 10; 478:1, 2; 
493:11; 504:15; 513:11; 
514:6, 12, 17; 515:3, 13, 
23; 516:25; 518:10, 17; 
521:18; 530:12; 580:20; 
595:20 

groups 447:6; 475:21; 
477:24; 478:13; 480:6, 10; 
483:10; 504:16 

growing 439.19; 585:25; 
586:7 

growth 421:21,23; 
439:21; 513:22; 585:23 
guess 451:14; 452:17; 
464:5; 481:10, 517:19; 
536:18; 604:17,21 
Guggenheim 552:25 
guidance 535:10 



H 



hack 418:6; 419:25; 
420:1 2; 421:9; 456:22; 



457:3,7, 16; 516:11; 
544:16; 567:11 
hacked 462:20; 482:4; 
529:5 

hackers 522:2 
hacking 462:6 

half 512:4; 550:24; 
578:10; 584:8; 606:19 
hand 554:19; 565:16 
handle 458:13; 473:5 
hands 421:4; 572:25 
handwriting 591:19 
Hanks 486:7 
happen 513:16; 535:1; 
548:9; 558:5, 6 
happened 416:10; 
417:19; 465:8, 10; 476:14; 
480:4, 11; 549:9; 581:13 
happening 422:13, 16; 
536:13; 545:11 
happens 531:18; 538:1; 
572:7; 590:10,22 
happy 517:23; 544:17; 
581:1 

hard 448:8; 472:6; 494:2; 
555:24 

hardware 437:3, 6; 
476:11; 485:10; 503:4; 
505:2, 22; 506:1, 6; 
508:13; 509:9, 19; 511:2, 
4, 11; 536:7; 538:23 
harm 418:5, 25;419:1; 
421:17; 448:22, 23; 499:5; 
501:4; 523:12, 14, 15; 
556:10; 557:2, 6; 558:20; 
559:1, 12; 562:15, 19; 
590:3 

harmed 568:16 
Hart 560:6; 580:10; 
587:11, 11; 588:8, 11; 
590:8,25; 598:8,10; 
599:1,4,7 
Harvard 552:8, 23 
hassle 507:21 
HBO 430:25 
head418:15;431:5 
headed 516:2 
heads 425:6 
hear 418:9; 434:9; 474:6; 
480:20; 504:6; 601 :16 
heard 420:16; 433:6; 
449:14, 16; 457:2; 474:4; 
483:11; 489:19; 490:4; 
505:24, 25; 506:18; 
512:19; 513:2, 11:531:7; 
533:1; 547:20; 595:3, 
609:18 

hearing 503:25 
hearsay 461:20; 463:11; 
465:23; 466:4, 10, 15, 16, 
20; 525:15, 17; 529:12, 16; 
549:13 
hearts 510:7 

heavily 553:18; 554:19, 
22 



held 455:19; 552:23 
help 436:17; 451:23; 
481:18; 506:19; 574:3,4; 
587:19 

helpful 431:25, 434:15; 
492:7 

helps 431:12 
Here's 537:11 
HERNSTADT417:3,9; 

445:24; 456:1, 5; 591:7 
herself 524:6 
high 457:8; 472:7; 
562:23; 566:22, 24; 567:7; 
585:15 

high-quality 558:23 
higher 563:1; 566:5 
highest 477:16 
highly 481:19; 482:4; 
568:22 

highly-desirable 547:L 
24; 548:3 

highly-profitable 439:14 

hinder 572:23~ 
history 595:1 
Hitachi 493:13, 14 
hold 551:19; 565:13, 17; 
570:9 

holder 432:9, 10 
holders 510:10 
holds 570:10 
Home421:18; 461:13; 
464:22; 468:6; 470:25; 
471:3; 472: 15; 473: 16; 
476:24; 480:8; 485:19; 
504:19; 520:20; 522:11; 
525:4; 528:18; 537:8; 
547:16; 571:8; 576:16,21, 
22 

homes 417:23; 441:25; 
442:1 

Honor413:21;4l4:4,ll; 

416:3, 20; 417:3; 419:2, 
23; 423:2; 427:3; 430:5; 
434:2; 436:5; 437:21; 
445:5, 14, 21; 446:16; 
447:17; 450:16; 452:25; 
453:24; 454:19, 25; 455:9, 
18,25;456:1;457:23; 
458:10; 460:13, 16; 
463:1 1,21; 464:8; 466:7, 
14; 467:9; 469:3, 12; 
473:1,9, 25; 482:3; 483:5, 
17; 484:15, 17; 486:22; 
487:5; 488:24; 489:5, 17; 
490:22; 491:8, 14; 492:4; 
495:14:496:11, 14; 498:7, 
17, 502:18,22; 506:7; 
512:2; 513:1; 516:8; 
518:4, 21; 519:21; 522:4, 
19; 524:12, 17; 525:4,6, 
20; 526:19; 527:4, 12; 
528:10; 529:7, 11,16; 
530:3; 532:12, 24; 533:4, 
6; 535:2; 538:20; 539:16, 
20; 541:17; 542:1 1; 543:5, 
16; 549: 17; 562:1; 576:1 ; 
577:25; 583:13; 584:4; 



475:2,6, 14,16; 479:15; 
480:20; 481:12, 19, 24; 
482:1, 10, 13, 17, 20,22; 
483:6, 13; 484:1; 485:3, 
17; 486:10, 21; 487:8, 16, 
20; 488:4, 17, 20; 489:6, 7, 
9, 21; 490:3, 6; 491:10, 23; 
492:4; 496:22, 25; 497:2, 
8; 498:18; 499:1, 12,14, 
22; 500:20; 501:13; 502:3, 
5, 24; 503:2, 10, 11, 12, 

16, 21; 504:2, 6; 505:8, 10; 
507:3, 5, 18, 24; 512:5, 12, 
14;513:25;514:1,3,12, 
15; 517:17; 518:24; 519:2, 
24; 520:2, 5, 22; 522:22, 
23, 25; 523:2, 7, 11, 19, 
21,25; 524:1,2, 23; 525:1, 
3,8, 9, 12, 20, 25; 526:2, 7, 
22; 527:19; 529:7, 14; 
530:5,6,9, 20, 22; 531:16, 

17, 21, 22; 532:3, 15; 
533:6; 535:5,6, 9; 536:18; 
537:10, 11, 23; 538:7, 8, 
14; 539:18, 20,25; 540:3, 
5,7,11,13, 17,19,22; 
541:4,9,13,19,25; 
542:20, 25; 543:12, 13; 
545:1,7, 13, 19, 21; 546:3, 
5, 23; 547:3,8, 11; 548:21; 
549:12,19, 20, 22; 550: 15; 
556:11; 559:3, 17, 23; 
560:9,11,14,15,21,25; 
561:12; 567:14; 575:2, 6, 
9, 20; 578:1,3; 584:14.21, 
22,25; 585:3,10,13,15, 
17; 590:20; 591:6,14; 
596:1,19; 597:14; 601:16, 
23, 24; 603:14, 15, 19,21, 
25; 604:5, 15,20; 605:1, 
10, 14; 606:1 1,12, 14,20, 
25; 607:3, 7; 608:1,2,16, 
17, 21, 22; 609:3, 6, 8,9 
gather 415:20; 450:12 
gathered 432:17 

gave 459:3, 473:21; 



giving 459:21; 554:17; 
572:20 

glitch 592:11,13 
glossary 534:14; 535:3 
goes 437:5,6,6, 9; 
440:20; 444: 18; 469:4; 
490:6; 496:17; 499:4, 5, 
16; 501:18; 522:11,19; 
523:11,17; 530:18; 
531:25; 532:3; 556:21; 
567:24 

GOLD 414:4, 19;4l6:3, 
10;417:12;419:23;423:2; 
427:3, 9; 428:17, 19,22; 
429:2,3, 5; 430:5; 434:2, 
4, 6; 436:5; 437:21; 445:4, 
5, 13, 14, 19, 21; 446:5, 
16; 447:17; 450:16; 
452:15, 25; 453:24; 
454:25;455:9, 13, 15, 16, 
18, 21, 25; 456:16, 17, 18; 
457:23; 458:2, 10, 20,22; 
460:13, 16; 462:8; 463:11, 
21 ; 464:8; 466:7, 14; 
467:22; 468:3; 469:3, 12; 
472:25; 473:25; 481:21; 
482:3; 483:5, 8, 17, 19,21; 
484:5, 13, 14, 17; 485:6, 
17; 486:22; 487:5, 13; 
488:24; 489:5, 16, 17; 
490:22; 491:8, 14; 492:4, 
7, 13; 495:12, 14; 496:11, 
14, 19; 497:15; 498:7, 16; 
502:18, 22; 506:7; 508:9; 
512:2; 513:1, 4, 515:15; 
516:5,8; 518:4; 519-15, 
21; 522:4, 7, 19; 524:12, 
17; 525:6, 13, 14; 526:14, 
19; 527:2, 4, 12; 528:10; 
529:11,16; 530:3; 531:14, 
25; 532:12, 24; 533:4; 
537:16,18; 538:20; 
539:16; 541:17; 542:11; 
543:5, 8, 14, 15, 18; 544:2; 
545:24, 25; 546:14, 18, 20; 
547:14; 549:9, 15, 16; 



Gain -Honor (8) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



v. 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



585:7; 590:18; 591:14; 
594:17; 595:9, 23; 596:16, 
19; 597:25; 600:3; 601:21; 
605:3; 606:1; 608:1 1,20; 
610:1 

Honor's 446:3; 555:14 
honors 552:10 
hope 485:18; 512:2; 
573:22; 607:18: 608:23 
hopes 574:8 
hoping 467:18 
hotels 557:18 
hour 578:7; 602:6; 
608:13 

hours 535:1; 538:4; 
578:8; 583:2; 585:11; 
587:14, 18, 18; 588:18; 
590:11,22; 598:11, 12,14, 
17,25:599:8, 20,21 
house 478:22; 479:1 
Hoy 482:6; 512:3 
Hudson 424:8, 10, 14 
hunk 488:14 
hurry 587:1, 4 
hypothetical 559: 15 



IBM 493:13,13 

ice 583:20, 23; 584:18, 

23; 585:1 

idea 468:21, 23; 471:9; 
492:22; 513:18; 582:20; 
609:7 

identification 435:5,7; 
526:13 

identified 608:7 

IEEE 450:22 
illegal 424:2, 5, 10, 13; 
457:7; 522:2; 548:7,7; 
573:8, 11; 593:7, 22; 
594:4; 595:6, 14; 597:24; 
601:3,10,14,20; 604:11 

illegally 479:3; 572:25; 
573:6 

image 422:2, 7 
imagination 503:13 
imagine 452:7; 519:6; 
607:21 

immediate 433:7; 
449:15;451:13 
immediately 4336; 
447:13; 506:18; 587:12 
immersed 472:11 
impact 421:7; 530:15; 
562:6; 567:11 
impacted 420:15 
implementation 437:8; 
438:12; 511:3 
implementations 438:1 
implied 469: 18 
implies 559:8 
importance 417:16 
important 423 20; 



447:18; 450:24; 507:14; 
548:10; 554:11; 577:14; 
589:8 

improper 575:12 
inadequate 532:22; 
533:3 

inappropriate 500:6 
inasmuch 534:13 
incentive 462:5; 544:11, 
12,16 

incentives 546:2, 22; 
547:7, 23; 548:13 
inches 574:20 
incident 520:10 
incidentally 563:22 
include 525:10 
included 471:6 

includes 490:25; 491:19; 
582:1 

including 416:19; 
418:21;419:10;435:3: 
521:8; 553:15; 559:25; 
581:17,18 

income 420:22,-421:21, 
23; 509:18, 21, 22, 22 
inconceivable 473:23, 
24 

Incorporated 476:6 
incorrect 523:2 

increase 440:7; 556:3; 
566:6; 569:12, 16, 17, 20, 
21; 572:15 
increased 437:19; 
439:10; 550:1; 570:21; 
593:15 

increases 440:15; 
441:14 

increasing 441:14 
increasingly 419:18 
incredible 433:2 
incremental 421:22; 
439:22; 440:13 
Indeed 448:11,20; 
475:11; 562:17; 572:17; 
573:18; 579:9; 607:12 
indentation 592:16, 17 
independent 474:9 
independently 502:17 
indicate 576:25 
indicated 426:12; 
447:20; 483:6; 530:18 
indicates 428:10; 433:24 
indicating 435:4; 439:25; 
452:3 

indices 553:15 
indicted i c 9:20 
indicting 459:23 
indirect 565:6 
indirectly 567:9; 569:24 
individual 435:22; 
550:10; 596:21; 597:2 
individuals 419:22; 
571:19 

industrial 553:16 



industries 419:12; 
477:15, 19; 479:23 
industry 419:12; 422:16, 
21, 22; 450:3, 9, 9,11; 
453:4; 470:21; 471:4, 7, 
10; 472:3; 474:4; 476:19, 
20, 23; 477:20, 20,22, 23, 
23; 478:3, 5,15, 479:18, 
19; 485:20; 493:17; 
494:11, 14; 500:2, 14; 
504:17, 18; 508:7; 509:4, 
5,6; 530:15; 531:8, 8; 
533:2; 550:8; 555:4; 
570:5; 582:11; 588:19; 
593:22; 594:5; 597:1, 23; 
599:23, 24; 600:2, 7; 
604:12 

infer 414:21, 24; 475:7 
inference 529:24 
infinitum 499:11 
inflated 583:20 
inflation 553:10 
inform 534:7 
information 427:22, 22; 
430:22; 431:11; 435:25; 
437:14, 15, 17;438:13; 
459:16:465:2; 501:19; 
512:4, 5; 517:14, 18; 
519:19; 583:5; 603:3 
informed 433:1; 443:6 
Infoseek 453:15, 18 
infrequent 600:14, 14 
infringement 500:14, 15 
initial 426:10; 470:15; 
607:20 

injunction 424:9, 11: 
448:24; 555:14; 607:20 
injured 554:15 
injury 496:18, 21 
innovations 423:13 
inputs 558:12 

inquiry 473:15; 51 1:23; 
522:21, 21;601:23 
inside 479:2 
installed 451:18; 506:12 
instance 570:15; 576:16; 
587:10 

instant 449:14 
instead 414:8; 471:18; 
563:10; 564:21; 566:7; 
572:20 

institutions 552:4 
Intel 493:14, 15; 509:6 

intellectual 431:1 1; 
499:14; 507:16; 509:24; 
510:10, 13; 557:10; 
572:20 

intended 585:4 
intense 481:3 
interest 413:7; 569:11 
interested 567:10; 572:4; 
597:12 

interesting 574:6 

interests 423:23; 482:1; 
485:1 



interim 502.9 
Internet 4 13:6; 414:2; 
420:8;424:25;425:12; 
427:2, 19: 429:23; 433:10, 
20; 434:1, 21; 435:6; 
436:7; 452:22; 453:6, 21; 
454:1; 457:11; 496:4, 9; 
516:3; 534:6; 548:6; 
555:24; 556:2, 17; 558:24; 
562:6, 14; 565:12; 567:21; 
568:10, 17,22:569:1,4; 
570:2; 596:3, 5; 600:10, 
12, 15,21 

Internet-distributed 

568:13 

interpret 500:18 
interpretation 529:9, 15 
interrupt 465:5: 547:3 
intervening 452:10 
intimately 435:18 

into4l5:18;4l9:9;420:5; 
423:1; 428:6; 434:12; 
445:1 5; 447:5, 14, 18; 
451:23; 454:22, 24; 
459:10; 465:22: 468:24; 
469:5,8,8, 10; 471:7; 
472:6, 23; 473:17; 483:14, 
14; 485:23; 486:1, 4; 
489:25; 491:23; 492:23; 
495:19; 499:23; 500:7; 
501:1,2,6,9, 10,13; 
507:18, 21; 516:13; 
517:22; 525:4; 529:10; 
534:25; 557:25; 558:13; 
572:24; 573:13: 576:4; 
577:21, 23; 581:1; 583:20, 
23:599:5 
invest 558:10 
investigate 43 1:3, 8,9 
investigation 438:5,7 
investigators 431:23 
investment 419:9, 11, 
12,13 

investments 419:10; 
557:24 

invite 413:8, 15; 584:17 
involve 534:9; 583:22 
involved 424:17; 426:5, 
7, 9; 432:19, 24; 435:19; 
450:20; 477:14; 480:6; 
485:1; 500:7; 515:22; 
553:18; 554:22; 555:1; 
557:10; 578:15; 579:7; 
581:24; 582:2 

involvement 453:3 
involves 534:9 
involving 451:6; 484:8; 
555:2; 572:19; 594:25; 
601:1,2,5 

IPS 435:21, 24; 436:3, 6,8 
irrelevance 491:15 
irrelevant 427:4; 446:17; 
484:14; 489:17; 490:23; 
501:8 

irreparable 496:17, 20 
ISPs 550:13 
Israeli 552:2 



issue 41 5:1 1,426:8; 
447:19;459:21;471:4; 
474:20; 483:4; 484:21; 
485:7; 490:7; 496:15; 
500:5; 501:15, 17; 504:25; 
518:11; 522:24; 530:19; 
532:1;537:1;541:11; 
542:15; 568:20; 584:8 
issued 485:8, 11; 502:8; 
518:9 

issues 416:21; 427:4; 
469:9; 472:13, 18; 500:7, 
8; 501:13, 18; 534:9; 
554:22;584:10; 601:6,13 
issuing 502:7, 10 



James 461:9,11, 12 
January 429:16; 452:9; 
463:15; 465:25; 470:13; 
471:15; 475:18; 513:17; 
514:23, 24; 515:4; 519:20; 
544:7,19; 545:3,4,16; 
549:10, 24 
Japanese 481:17; 
498:22 
Jean 551:15 
Jeremy 461:4 
jewels 420:21; 478:22 
Jim 465:5 
jittery 545:17 
job 547:15 
Johansen 609:21 
John 460:25; 534:3; 
552:13 
joint 462:18 
Jordanian 552:2 

Judge 433:17,452:3; 
471:19; 481:18; 510:16; 
581:7,12 

judge's 415:6; 486: 10; 
580:23 

judgment 423:25; 546:1, 
21; 547:7, 22 
judgments 547:15, 18 
judicial 413:18; 534:21 
judiciary 534:24 
Judiciary's 534:23, 24 
juice 576:24 
July 526:20, 20, 23; 
559:4; 582:6; 607:13; 
610:2 

June 452:9 
junior 552:22 



K 



K 460: 15 
K8 526:13 
kayak 424:10, 14 
kayakers 424:8, 12 
keep 509:12 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, RC. 



Min-U-Script® 



(9) Honor's - keep 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



keeping 506:1; 513:17 
key 518:25; 519:8; 531:12 
keys 478:22, 25; 479:3; 
505:4,5 
kill 606:19 
kind 429:21, 445:18; 
447:6; 472:22; 509:24; 
510:1, 2; 519:11; 559:9 
^indrress^lO^ — 
kinds 485:11 
KING 416:25; 417:10, 13; 
423:3:427:13; 441:5; 
445:17; 456:19; 460:19; 
464:3; 468:3; 490:18; 
497:13; 504:8; 526:4, 8; 
531:23; 532:14; 533:1; 
543:19; 546:1,17,21; 
550:20 

knew 446:20; 447:3,9, 
25; 462:19; 472:9; 474:4; 
497:2; 498:1 1; 518:1; 
523:3,8,12; 532:3, 4; 
548:6; 575:12 
knight 460: 15 
knowing 453:13; 523:14; 
537:5; 542:17 
knowledge 4 14:24; 
429:24; 430: 15, 19; 
432:22, 25; 433:9; 449:22; 
452:6; 453:2, 3; 462:10, 
21;466:17; 471:14; 
474:14; 496:10; 497:19; 
498:14; 511:21, 23; 
512:24; 513:21; 515:22, 
25; 531:3; 538:17, 23; 
541:14; 571:3; 594:24 
knowledgeable 453:8, 
10,13 

known 447:10; 448:2; 
452:24; 530:13; 607:11, 
13, 14 

knows 413:4; 432:10; 
452:22, 22; 453:14; 469:8; 
497:13 

Kodak 580:14; 581:10 
Kurlantzick 562:4; 
574:16, 575:8; 576:11; 
594:11,19; 595:5; 604:12 
Kurlantzick's 574:23; 
588:21; 604:3 



lace 548:18 
lack 547:12 
lacks 597:25; 600:3; 
601:21 

large 440:18; 472:4; 
532:10, 555:25; 565:23; 
571:23; 573:25 
largely 456:10; 581:4 
largest 565:6 

last 415:6, 17;417:5; 
430:20; 445:3, 24; 452:14; 
473:21; 480:20; 494:3; 
495:24; 529:3, 4, 20. 25; 



534:15; 542:4; 551:25, 
553:23; 554:25; 556:24; 
578:17,22; 579:10; 
582:21; 583:10; 589:13; 
597:14; 599:19; 602:9 
lastly 534:21; 556:5 
late 416:3; 470:12 
later 429:8; 467:22; 
517:7 ; 564:1 , 13,14; 



567:10, 24 
latitude 448:25 
laude 552:6 
launch 517:23 
launched 418:1 
Iaw422:18;423:l4, 16, 
17, 18; 447:9; 459:1; 
474:11; 488:1; 490:13; 
523:22, 24; 531:18; 
574:16 

law-abiding 423:10 
lawfully 537:13 
laws 482:19; 531:10; 
583:19 

lawsuit 424:17; 448:20; 
466:1; 499:17; 536:21; 
549:24, 25; 550:9 
lawsuits 487:6; 512:7, 
21, 22; 550:3 
lawyer 427:8; 484:9; 
519:9; 531:23; 538:15; 
546:9; 581:4 
lawyer's 459:12 
lawyers 456:11; 458:12, 
17,18, 23, 25; 459:17; 
520:17; 579:12 
lay 413:13; 483:17 
lead 570:2,3,21 
leader 493:12 
leaders 493:13 
lead i ng 475 ; 3: 476:20; 
545:14; 583:18 
learn 433:25; 434:25; 
435:4; 516:22; 583:9 

learned 450:1; 516:4, 23; 
604:17 

least 414:17, 25; 419:21; 
420:5; 424:16; 437:25; 
443:7; 452:5, 24; 472:3; 
479:7, 8, 9; 488:6; 491: 16; 
534:14; 565:2; 567:2; 
570:4; 589:8; 594:18 
leave 478:23 
leaves 534:12 

left 433:5; 465:13; 
495:20; 553:5; 605:16, 25 

legal 458:17; 459:3, 23; 
487:13; >92: 14; 499:5; 
535:21; 541:8, 11; 542:12 
legislation 420:2; 
470:19; 471:1, 7, 8,10; 
476:17, 25; 477:8, 10,25; 
479:2, 17, 20; 480: 12; 
488:16 

legislative 470:20, 
476:18 

legitimate 419:17, 18; 



500:21 

lend 542:7,9,14,16,18; 
543:2,9 

length 580:22; 582:5 
lengthen 609:19 
lengthy 457:14 

less 441:21; 496:2; 514:1; 
562:3,23; 563:25; 565:3, 
3, 21; 568:5, 6; 576:20; 
584:8, 19; 599:21; 608:3 
lesser 565:14 
Ietter4l6:ll;456:8 
letters 435:16, 17, 20 
Lewis 528:15 
libraries 420:19 
library 420:16, 19,25; 
421:3 

license 436:23, 24; 
437:5; 439:6; 450:25; 
454:13, 18; 478:9, 10; 
482:10, 13, 25; 483:8, 9; 
484:6; 490:19; 491 :6, 12, 
18; 493:9, 9; 502:9; 505:5, 
8, 11; 511:4, 19; 517:11, 
21; 531:12: 532:6, 11; 
536:2, 10; 537:14; 539:12, 
13; 541:3, 4; 542:21; 
580:25; 603:8 

licensed 437:24, 25; 
438:16; 489:10, 11,11; 
538:19; 542:10; 569:9 
licenses 436:19; 437.11; 
438:3,9, 11, 24; 439:2, 5; 
481:8; 485:8, 11; 502:7, 8, 
10; 504:25; 511:1, 13; 
541:15; 567:5 
licensing 426:10; 
436:15, 22; 439:4; 476:15; 
478:20; 480:16; 481:1, 4; 

491:4; 509:18, 23; 510:5; 

511:10; 517:10, 19, 20; 

535:11,12,14,16,17; 

536:12,19,19,23; 539:11; 

541:1; 565:13; 572:19 

Lieberfarb 464:20, 23; 

465:14 

Life 498:24 

light 414:17; 466:25; 

469:22; 530:2 

likely 507:7; 519:10; 

558:1; 563:21; 569:11 

limine 584:6 

limit 523:25 

limitations 490:12 

limited 472:9: 529:17: 
530:17; 565:17 
line 418:17; 427:4; 
431:25; 469:3; 473:14; 
475:3; 487:6; 490:23; 
498:7; 511:22; 526:10; 
527:20; 531:14; 560:15, 
22; 595:23; 601:23 
lined 467:21; 580:25 
lines 549:1; 555:24; 
588:2 



link 466:20 

Linux 432:18; 437:16, 19, 
24;438:1, 9, 11,11,14, 
18,21;483:1, 10;511:l6; 
512:25; 513:7, 9,22; 
526:24, 25; 527:9; 571:14, 
15; 572:9, 12; 573:16,18, 
20, 23; 574:5, 6; 585:23; 
586:9,12,16 



Linuxes 438:3 

list 421:24; 428:5; 445:21 

listed 575:9 

listen 443:7 

listened 477:12 

listener 546:15 

literature 565:23,24 

litigation 458:14; 465:25; 
466:1; 578: 15, 23; 579:2, 
11, 13 

little 44 1:7; 446: 10; 

470:23:524:23.24,25; 

562:23 

Litvak 585:20: 587:10, 
10; 588:10, 10; 589:23; 
590:24, 25 
live 534:4 

LiViD 432:14; 513:11, 17; 
571:7,14,22; 572:11,14, 
18; 574:3 
located 497:24 

lock 478:23; 479:1; 
523:17 

logs 432:12, 14, 16, 17; 
436:3; 513:17 

long427:9;449:ll; 
479:5; 484:24; 494:4, 21; 
498:4,6, 11; 502:8; 511:3: 
527:21; 530:13, 14; 
551:17; 552:13; 553:3; 
^6a^5f^64 : 23^4 66: 19 ; — 
588:4; 596:20; 599:3,8, 
18; 609:18 

longer 441:18; 485:25; 
524:21; 563:6; 582:2 

look 413:15; 414:7; 
417:7; 422:13; 436:9; 
452:17;456:12;458:16; 
461:8; 467:18; 469:7; 
473:2; 474:6; 478:22; 
485:13; 486:14, 17; 487:8; 
489:16; 492:1, 7; 498:18; 
499:6; 500:11; 514:22; 
515:9; 516:2; 518:8; 
519:24; 528:1; 534:25; 
543:6; 568:18; 570:7; 
SS3:l6; 588:18; 592:2, 5, 
16, 601:18; 603:8; 607:11 
looked 435:8; 449: 12; 
450:5; 470:24; 485:15, 16; 
593:21; 603:13 
looking 420:5; 442:3; 
451:1,461:14; 471:1; 
480:3; 515:17, 21; 522:9; 
529:4; 557:11; 583:22; 
604:9 

looks 457:19; 514:15; 
518:13 



Los 431:15 

lose 419:17, 18; 545:18; 
548:11 

loss 419:1,6, 421:8; 
427:17; 428:2; 440:6; 
447:15; 570:5; 583:6,11 
lost 418:17, 24; 420:2; 
512:12; 556:25; 576:17; 
597:17 



lot 521:17; 529:5; 537:6; 
538:5; 554:20; 571:1; 
586:13, 14; 587:21 
lots 414:22; 504:19; 
505:15; 520: 18; 566:25 
love 414:6 
loved 451:12 
low 566:12 

lower 563:24; 566:4, 5, 
10 

lunch 467:14; 468:5; 
525:3; 533:6,7; 535:10; 
538:5; 546:14 
Luncheon 533:10 

M 



M 455:5; 551:4,8 
M.A 552:6 
Ma'am 544:5 
machine 447:14 
machines 505:14; 
527:11 

macroeconomists 

553:9 

Macrovision 521:10, 13, 

19,25 

magnitude 579:6 
Mail 486:9, 13; 598:9 
major 428:6; 430:3, 19; 
432:23; 438:8; 476:5,7; 
477:14, 19; 506:13, 16 
maker 490:18 
makes 422:20; 437:1; 
486:6; 492:6; 518:22; 
574:5; 600:13 
making 451:14; 457:7, 
15; 492:19; 506:2; 522:2; 
558:8; 564:16 
male 535:3 
man 607:18 
manufactured 505:16 
manufacturer 437:3, 7 
manufacturers 485:10; 
503:4; 508:1 4; 509:9 
Manufacturing i76:3 
many 418:3; 433:8; 
438:20, 24; 481:6; 485:8, 
11;517:13;559:12,15; 
567:25; 573:14,14,15; 
578:8; 581:24; 584:10; 
586:16; 592:2; 597:5, 10; 
598:18 

March 452:9; 468:7; 
480:25; 516:14 



keeoine - March (10) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



marginal 558:14 
mark 445:1; 446:8, 8; 
451:9; 585:20 
marked 445:2; 482:7; 
516:5; 526:13, 19 
market 439:11; 440:7, 17, 
18; 441:13, 14; 445:15, 16; 
451:15; 472:7, 23; 473:18; 
479:24; 513:22; 516:19; 
545:11; 562:6; 566:16; 
567:22; 568:13, 15; 
596:23 

marketplace 422:14, 20; 
444:6, 13; 516:14; 517:22 
markets 553:13; 571:3 
marking 446:12; 447:5; 
449:7,8, 10; 4 50:1 3; 
451:7, 7; 478:14; 493:1, 4 
Marks 460:21, 24; 
495:21; 507:15 
MARSHA 416:25; 460:19 
Mastercard 602:4 
mastering 419:10 
material 466:9; 529:10; 
554:22; 556:5 
materials 416:14; 
493:10,23 
math 585:16 
mathematics 552:20; 
598:16 

matrix 439: 19; 486:9 
Matshushita 502.14 

Matsushita 449:13; 
451:22;476:6; 493:15; 
502:8, 10; 504:9; 506:17, 
25; 508:1, 2, 22; 509:4, 23; 
517:20 

matter 454:9; 474:12; 
475:13; 487:14; 488:18; 
534:8; 535:1; 550:3; 
555:14; 556:21; 568:14; 
574:2 

matters 458: 17; 534:25 
mature 421:22 
maximize 571:9 
maximizing 558:16, 18 
maximum 557:22 

may 413:21,25,25; 
414:4, 5;419:2; 428:17; 
442:21;445:1, 14; 447:13, 
21; 448:2; 452:9; 455:6; 
456:2, 23; 460:10, 13; 
467:24; 469:3; 481:12, 13; 
487:6; 490:13; 492:13; 
496:23; 497:6; 498:7; 
499:20; 501:8; 502:24; 
507:1, 2, 6; 516:6; 518:16; 
520:22: 524:24; 526:2; 
530:22; 532:15; 535:5,6; 
538:12; 543:23; 547:3; 
550:24; 556:23; 558:14; 
561:2; 564:4; 570:18; 
572:17; 580:3; 591:14; 
603:22; 605:10 
maybe 427:6, 443:5; 
446:21: 455:11; 467:18; 
481:18; 510:21; 520:13: 



535:10; 539:4; 542:3; 
564:20; 565:23; 584:2; 
599:21 

McHale 606:3 
mean 423:5; 425:18; 
439:18, 19; 440:24; 
445:18; 448:8, 14; 449:6; 
453:14; 477:3; 478:17; 
480:9; 486:19; 504:19; 
505:12,15; 507:6,13; 
511:11; 517:18; 542:14; 
544:1; 568:4; 569:13, 14, 
15; 572:15, 16; 579:4; 
580:19; 583:24; 591:3; 
600:8; 606:17 
meaning 464:3; 479:9, 
10; 494:10 

meaningless 448:12; 
556:20 

means 490:10; 493:8; 
499:18, 20, 20; 519:4; 
539:1, 7; 549:16; 604:16 

meant 441:3; 449:19; 
464:12; 467:7; 530:2 
measure 499:9; 540:1 
measures 423:10; 499:8 
media 428:6; 493:24; 
528:18; 529:22; 530:1; 
593:6; 603:23, 24 
medium-sized 565:23 
meet 425:5 

meeting 457:21:458:13; 
464:23, 25; 465:1, 4; 
468:25; 474:3; 475:21; 
494:3, 5; 515:4, 13; 518:10 
meetings 433:7; 478:2; 
480:9, 10; 485:25; 507:9, 
12; 514:7; 515:6; 531:4,7 
meets 444:13, 15, 16 
Meg 486:7 

member 514:5; 551:22 
members 415:14; 
475:24; 580:24 
membership 514:8 
memo 526:9 
memorandum 516:18 
memory 470.16 
mention 415:10, 12; 
565:7; 572:13 
mentioned 427:24; 
454:22, 23; 485:3, 19; 
563:16; 566:15; 570:8; 
593:25 

mercy 474:14 
Merdan 521:6,7, 10; 
524:16 

merely 505:21 
merit 436:10 
message 423:12 
met 476:2, 2; 477:12 
methods 552:19; 553:5 
Michael 455:5 
microeconomic 576:19 
microeconomist 553:8 
Microeconomists 



553:10 

microphone 574:20 
Microsoft 413:10, 19; 
477:9; 553:25; 572:25; 
573:6, 6, 8,12,17, 24; 
574:1,9,12; 591:21; 
600:24; 601:13 
Microsoft's 573:10 
mid-to-late 480:14 
Middle 552:1, 3 
might 419:1; 445:19; 
475:7; 487:15; 510:10; 
519:6,12; 533:7; 564:11; 
565:7, 18; 566:13; 569:15; 
574:9; 589:20; 590:25; 
591:9; 597:12; 608:13 
million 417:23, 24; 418:4; 
419:13; 451:14, 19 
mine 521:8; 534:24; 
544:2; 548:3 
minimum 456:13 
minority 571:17, 18 
minute 414:8; 440:10; 
461:16; 471:13:514:1; 
525:1; 538:4; 550:24; 
575:23; 605:20 
minutes 436:12; 467:11. 
18; 503:18; 504:4; 533:8; 
534:15; 584:20, 25 
mirroring 550:6 
misheard 440:10 
misleading 580:4; 
581:23 

misstate 589:24 
misstatement 590:19 
misstating 510:16 

MIT 551:16, 17; 592:3; 
595:22 

MMCD470.il 
mode 499:10 
model 581:11 
moderate 566:13 
modes 567:6 

moment 454:19; 473:9, 
11; 490:24; 507:25; 
539:18; 581:25; 595:18; 
607:24 

money 483:9; 510:2; 
511:6, 8, 9; 544:17; 566:7; 
571:1; 572:20 
monopoly 503:3, 5; 
573:10 

month 430:16; 493:25; 
494:1 

months 430:20; 436:10; 
452:10, 14; 494:8; 516:18; 
51 7: 13; 602:8 
more 436: 12; 439:2; 
451:19; 486:6; 491:21; 
513:24; 550:5, 6; 553:17; 
554:9, 11; 556:14; 557:12; 
563:15,21,23; 569:14; 
570:2, 3; 571:5; 573:15; 
574:6; 575:14; 580:17, 19; 
584:13; 588: 15; 608:2 
Moreover 427:5 



morning 417:13, 14; 
424:23; 467:9; 520:9; 
535:3, 22; 606:15; 607:8; 
608:11; 609:16, 20 
morning's 537:7 
most 498:1; 507:13; 
552:18; 553:24; 562:19; 
570:20; 586:14; 588:4 
most-promising 552:15 
mostly 555:3 
motion 421:5; 422:3, 3; 
436:25; 470:18, 21; 
474:20; 477:20; 478:15; 
484:6, 20; 493:17; 504:17; 
506:17; 509:4; 510:8; 
512:8; 521:8; 532:19; 
533:2; 568:13,17:584:6; 
585:21; 607:20 
motions 555:15, 16; 
560:3; 584:6 
move 460:7; 480: 12; 
490:7; 516:21; 525:4; 
529:10; 542:3 
moves 480: 12 
movie 414:1; 420:6; 
422:22, 25; 424:24; 
425:12:426:2, 22:427:1; 
429:22; 430:25; 434:22; 
435:1, 22; 436:19; 437:5; 
440:20; 446:20; 447:24; 
448:2;450:11;454:15, 16, 
17; 457:6; 468:12, 20; 
475:22, 23; 479:18; 
485:10; 486:9, 10, 12; 
496:3, 4; 503:4; 506:25; 
508:7; 509:10; 519:10; 
523:3; 554:2, 14, 15; 
555:2; 557:9, 15,21,24; 
558:14; 563:3; 564:3, 6, 8, 
12, 13, 17, 25; 566:19, 21, 
24; 567:4, 10, 23; 568:1, 9, 
20, 20; 569:16, 17; 570:5, 
10,14,14,22; 572:15,16; 
582:11; 588:19; 593:22; 
594:4; 596:7, 10; 597:1, 
23; 599:23; 600:2, 7 
movies 414:23; 420:22, 
23; 421:6; 422:23; 423:1; 
434:1; 435:6; 441:1,17, 
24; 451:16; 457:11; 
471:21; 476:9, 10; 478:21; 
492:10; 496:9; 500:14; 
504:25; 505:5, 19, 22; 
506:2, 4; 510:17; 555:2, 3, 
20, 21, 23; 556:1; 557:16, 
22, 24; 558:3, 6, 7, 11, 13; 
563:11,13,14,16,19, 20, 
24,25; 564:7,21,24; 
565:2,3,9: 566:15,19; 
567:1:568:6, 10. 19 : 22; 
569-1.7, iS, 18, 27; 570:1/ 
4; 571:25, 25; 572:6,11; 
593:7; 596:4; 601:3 
moving 584:16 

MPA431.13; 435:11; 
438:7; 512:8, 20 

MPAA 425:1 1; 430:4; 
431:3, 10, 12; 432:22; 
433:1, 4, 23; 434:20, 25; 



435:7; 455:3; 457:6, 22; 
4 58: 12; 4 59: 16; 460:21; 
465:1;475:24; 494:13; 
513:16; 518:1; 519:12; 
583:5; 600:9 
much 422:10; 466:22; 
469:9; 513:24; 524:21; 
534:1 2; 558:9; 566:20; 
577:21; 578:4, 17; 580:1; 
581:7,7; 584:4,6; 591:4; 
598:23; 601:22; 606:7 
multi-industry 479:5; 
495:20; 504:10,13 
multiply 585:14 
mushroomed 439:11 
mushrooming 439:14 
music 422:16, 17,20; 
444:5, 10, 12; 450:3; 
477:23; 492:9, 10; 576:17 
musical 576:24 
myself 4 16:1; 434:7; 
474:10; 560:12; 600:25 



N 



naked 488:13 
name 433:16, 19; 434:21, 
25; 435:4, 21; 460:12; 
470:6,7, 10; 486:5; 
497: 16; 498: 11; 514:9; 
526:10; 551:7; 552:12; 
588:24; 589:3, 11,16; 
607:22 
named 576:2 

namely 447:19; 465:25; 
482:23; 485:7; 506:1; 
523:12 

names 433:25; 435:9 
Napster 593:3, 10, 16 
narrative 485 22 
National 551:22; 552:24 
natural 573:14 
nature4l7:l6; 491:24; 
529:17; 534:12 
naval 498:22 
near 556:3, 16; 558:8 
necessarily 436:21; 
576:22,25; 578:16, 23 
necessary 539:23 
need 436:23; 438:25; 
446:8; 452:21; 453:6; 
471:4;478:21;479:2, 17; 
494:11; 534:17; 580:20; 
585:13; 588:4; 598:3; 
606:8; 609:25 
needed 461:17; 583:25; 
588:8 

needs 453:2; ^92:5 
negative 565:13 
negligible 558:1 
negotiate 511:23 
negotiating 493:17 
negotiation 495 4 
negotiations 479:5; 
481:4; 495:2, 20,21; 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



Mi n-U-S cr ip t® 



(11) marginal - negotiations 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



504:10,13 

neither 519:17; 534:13 
net 499:7; 550:1, 5; 570:4, 
5; 571:23, 23 
network 420:7; 534:23, 
24; 557:19; 563:20, 24 
networks 563:25; 564:2 
nevertheless 554:15 
new4l8:22;420:13,22, 
23;421:3,3; 431:13; 
444:16:461:13; 471:9,10; 
474:21, 23; 478:15, 16; 
489:3,4; 506:10; 528:18; 
530:8; 547:2; 548:25; 
549:1; 558:16; 599:5 
newspaper 466:19; 
529:22 

next 428:11; 429:6; 
442:5; 443:8; 460:7; 
461:8:467:15, 24; 492:8; 
494:1,8; 501:22; 526:17; 
533:11; 550:23; 551:2; 
561:17; 575:17; 582:21; 
585:17; 592:10; 602:10; 
605:7 

nicely 574:11 
night 445:3, 24 
nine 438:8; 585:14; 
602:7; 608:6 
ninth 521:2; 588:22; 
594:14; 603:17 
no-cost 569:1 
nobody 597:20 
non-party 481:23 
noncompatible 451:21 
none 440:4, 22; 540:6 
Nonetheless 466:22; 
500:16 

nonprofit 595:20 
nonrelease 459:3 
Nor 415:24 
normal 444:9 
North 461:12 
not-for-profit 510:4 
notice 413:18; 446:1, 2, 
3; 485:2; 562:10 
noticed 415:22 
notwithstanding 499:7 
novelty 569:5 
November 452:8; 
495:24; 521:25 

number 415:24; 437:15, 
18; 452:13; 456:3; 516:10; 
550:1; 555:1; 556:1; 
558:2; 577:15; 582:14, 17; 
584:2; 592:5,6, 8,10: 
594:2 

numbers 586:3; 592:12 

O 

o'clock 533:9; 608:23; 
609: 16; 610:3 
O.K427:15; 437:2; 441:3; 



1 478:23; 484:18; 498:13; 
536:18; 543:13; 552:13; 
557:1 5; 604:23; 605:25 
oath 417:10 
object 418:7, 13; 419:2, 
5;421:12, 14;422:4; 
425:l6;426:l,13,17; 
427:3; 434:2; 436:5; 
437:21;445:5; 446:18; 
450:16;452:15;453:24; 
462:8; 463:11; 472:25; 
486:22; 489:5; 491:14; 
492:13; 495:12, 14; 
496: 11; 498:7, 16; 502:18, 
22; 508:9; 518:4; 519:15, 
21; 522:7; 525:6, 14; 
527:4, 12; 529:11; 530:3; 
531:14; 532:12, 24; 
537:18, 18; 538:20; 
539:16; 543:5; 545:1,7, 
13, 19; 546:3, 23; 547:11; 
548:21; 549:12; 556:11; 
559:3,8,17; 567:14; 
583:13; 595:23; 596:16; 
597:25 

objected 461:21; 531:25 
objecting 530:7 
objection 415:14; 418:8; 
445:20; 446:4, 22; 452:21, 
25; 458:20; 464:9; 484:12; 
487:25; 491:8; 492:15; 
503:18; 504:5; 509:11; 
513:3; 518:5; 523:1, 2, 10, 
20; 524:12; 525:16; 
529:18; 531:25; 533:4; 
537:20,22; 541:17; 
549:14; 562:9; 580:10; 
594:17; 595:9 
obligation 473:3, 474:9, 
16 

observation 445:19 
observe 574:10 
observed 581:5 
obsolete 506:19 
obsoleted 451:17, 20 
obsoleting 506:23 
obtain 556:1; 569:7 
obtainable 532:6 

obvious 414:17; 432:7; 
452:18, 23; 473:15; 488:8; 
499:4; 530:16; 562:20 

Obviously 413:19; 
440:24; 474:23; 484:25; 
528:9; 541:19; 565:17 
occasion 448:15, 19 
occupation 551:14 
occur 424:1 

occurred 424:1; 508:19: 
534:16 

October 449:24; 450:11: 
452:5,6, 24; 453:4; 
495:24; 516:24 

off 420:13; 431:5; 443:5; 
450:25; 544:17 

offer 424:23; 446:19, 21; 
465:22; 466:5; 483:13; 
491:1,19; 502:24,25; 



503:12,19, 20; 507:22; 
512:10; 525:10; 529:14; 
575:18; 596:17 
offered 432:3; 461:20; 
466:8; 561:15; 575:4,19 
offering 414:23; 432:2; 
567:5; 577:19, 20 
office 431:22; 445:24; 
465:4 

officer 497:23 
offices 431: 13, 15, 17, 
18,19, 23 
officially 456:7 
older 420:20 

once4l4:12;432:25; 

520:9; 552:22; 567:23; 
568:19; 569:2 
one 414:17; 421:20, 24; 
422:15;423:3;424:6, 9, 
16;425:11;426:12,25; 
428:5; 430:1; 433:19; 
439:3, 13; 446:14; 450:6, 
23; 455:23; 456:1; 458:18; 
470:11, 11:472:13, 18; 
475:6; 476:9; 478:13; 
481:9, 14; 483:17; 487:3, 
7; 488:22; 493:1 5, 23; 
495:8; 498:19; 500:18, 20; 
510:21, 22; 511:24; 
518:18; 521:23; 524:2: 
526:4,6; 531:9; 532:18; 
535:15,16; 536:13; 538:9; 
539:6, 15; 544:8; 548:5; 
554:19; 560:19; 563:13; 
565:6,16, 24; 567:25; 
568:18; 571:15; 573:18; 
574:7, 10; 577:16, 19, 19; 
580:9, 21; 584:16; 588:17, 
18; 589:8; 591:9: 592:22; 
597:16, 16; 598:6; 602:1; 
603:6; 604:12; 605:17, 18, 
19, 24; 606:2, 4, 6; 607:16, 
17; 608:13, 13; 609:20 
one-for-one 577:6 
one-to-one 576:14 
ones 413:12; 552:12; 
555:11 

only 420:3, 9; 437:10; 
448:14; 474:7; 475:18; 
482:5, 8, 23; 489: 15; 
494:18; 498:20; 499:1, 14; 
501:3; 515:20; 531:9; 
538:18; 543:10; 547:24; 
565:23; 566:12; 577:10; 
592:22; 594:20; 598:6; 
605:17 
onto 506:10 
open 416:24; 475:15; 
478:2; 484:24. 25: 485:5: 
502:25; 504:15; 513:10; 
538:6; 571:7; 572:24 
opened 493:22 
operating 413:5; 438:21, 
22; 571:4,8,18, 24; 572:4, 
24; 573:1; 586:20 
operative 495 1, 18 
opine 554:12 
opinion 475:6; 538:1; 



542:12; 554:6; 556:9; 
557:1, 4, 22; 558:25; 
562:4,14,18; 565:11; 
568:14,25; 569:10; 570:6; 
574:14; 580:12; 583:22; 
587:17,19; 596:17 
opinions 554:17; 589:9; 
604:3 

opportunity 447:24; 
452:14; 472:3, 9 
opposed 424:5, 6; 553:8; 
589:6 

optical 470:8 
option 562:24; 563:10, 
12; 576:23 
orange 576:24 

order 423:5; 484:23; 
485:8; 505:13; 527:9; 
564:17; 579:5; 581:16 
orders 446:3 
ordinary 563:20 
organization 504:24; 
510:4; 552:18; 553:17 
organized 557:21 
original 429:15; 565:21; 
566:11, 12; 576:18,21; 
591:18; 598:10 
Originally 470:19, 24 
originals 571:2; 577:10 
Osterover 528:16 
Ostrover 528:20, 24; 
530:2 

others 456:2; 466:3; 
528:13; 548:1; 580:16; 
589:9 

otherwise 491:6; 519:5; 
535:19: 562:22; 563:9, 24: 
569:23 

ought 413:8; 427:6; 
456:4; 529:24; 539:4; 
574:7 

out4l3:13;4l4:2;4l5:9, 
16; 417:17; 421:22; 424:6, 
25, 25; 425:12; 429:23; 
435:16, 17; 436:25; 437:1, 
3; 439:19; 442:16, 18; 
443:1; 444:2, 3, 9; 445:12, 
23; 450:3; 452:4; 456:4, 
13; 459:17; 465:3; 467:15; 
476:18; 481:2; 484:1; 
487:17; 493:10; 497:4; 
503:25; 505:2; 506:1,6, 
13, 23; 510:6; 520:15; 
532:22; 539:3; 562:25; 
565:8; 566:19, 20; 570:12; 
576:2; 577:21; 581:17; 
583 21; 588:19; 589:4; 
59 ^:21; 605:1 1,20, 22, 24; 
606:22; 607:18; 608:12 
outside 505:11; 521:7; 
534:18, 23 

outstanding 552:12 
over 415:12, 16;4l6:4,9, 
15,18, 22; 417:4, 5, 23; 
420:24; 429:23; 438:8; 
495:21; 496:4, 9; 509:12, 
12, 12, 13, 13, 13; 511:12; 



512:13; 545:11; 553:21, 
23; 554:25; 555:23; 
560:22; 568:25; 589:13; 
596:4 

overall 458:15; 494:14; 
569:15 

overnight 591:9 
Overruled 418:14; 
421:16; 427:15; 450:17; 
463:12; 489:1; 490:24; 
508:11; 546:10, 25; 
556:22; 562:9; 598:2 

overrules 483:3 

own 423:11;454:12; 
471:14; 474:14; 498:23; 
509:9; 534:20; 542:7; 
559:25; 570:10; 582:10 
owned 502:12; 503:3 
owners 556:1; 559:1; 
562:16 

ownership 488:13 
owns 507:25; 542:16; 
543:9 



page4l3:ll;443:8; 
460:18; 461:8; 466:24; 
467:24; 483:15; 485:4; 
501:22; 514:22; 516:2, 5, 
6,7,10; 521:2; 525:18; 
527:18; 533:1 1; 543:24; 
560:9,11,14,15,21,24; 
561:1,15,15,17; 562:2; 
580:5,6; 590:12; 592:6; 
602:10 

pages 415:5; 525:17, 
560:18; 592:16, 17 
paid 508:7, 14, 18; 
569:23: 577:12, 15; 578:4, 
6; 584:2 

Palestinian 552:2 
Panasonic 442:20; 

508:14 

panicking 545:5 
paper 551:11 
papers 555:9; 592:20 
paragraph 461 :9; 

515:10, 15, 17; 544:11, 22; 
562:3; 571:6; 572:22; 
576:11; 592:5, 10 
paragraphs 413:12, 18; 
529:3,4,20,25 

Pardon 421:13; 428:13, 
21;450:9; 469:15; 471:21; 
479: 15; 496:25; 523:7; 
526:25: 592:21; 595:22; 
599:1; 60 1:8; 603:20 
part 429:13; 439:22; 
458:10; 472:4, 4; 479:21; 
481:5, 17, 19; 485:9; 
488:3; 490:22; 512:10; 
544:10; 547:15; 560:8; 
561:1; 573:25; 580:22 
participate 431:10 
participated 471:23; 



neither - participated (12) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



472:1; 475:24; 521:17 
participating 485:25; 
495:23 

particular 414:9; 466:5; 
496:2; 499:10, 15; 500:3; 
522:15; 526:17; 528:2; 
554:16; 572:4; 591:4; 
597:8 

particularly 413:12; 
428:10; 529:2,20,25; 
569:3, 4; 579:5 
parties 474:8, 15; 495:9; 
504:15, 20; 546:8; 576:2 
partly 581:6 
partner 475:10, 10 

party 425:11; 437:9; 
466:13; 474:12; 511:7; 
534:13; 603:22 
past 431:6; 448:22 
patent 510:10, 12; 537:2, 
4; 538:10, 13, 14, 15 
Pause 488:19; 514:4; 
539:19; 551:1 
pay 44 1:7; 483:9; 508:18; 
511:6, 8; 564:3,8, 9, 18, 
" 23, 24; 565:9; 566:7, 18, 
21, 24; 567:7, 9: 568:2; 
569:19; 571:1; 573:19; 
576:23,25; 584:2; 597:6 
pay-per-view 420:7; 
564:7, 10 

paying 440:25; 51 1:19; 
566:7, 22 
payment 568:21 
PCs 571:8 
peculiar 571:25 
penal 523:23 
people4l4:23;4l5:l4, 
24; 426:4; 432:19, 24; 
433:25; 437:10, 11; 438:2; 
440:24; 452 13; 471:12; 
476:4,9, 9, 10, 10; 477:25; 
482:23, 24, 25; 498:24; 
499:7; 5033; 507:17; 
509:9; 520:18; 526:24, 25; 
530:13; 532:18; 535:18; 
544:16; 545:5; 547:1, 5; 
548:1, 20; 550:5, 6; 
562:22; 563:1,9,21,23; 
564:6; 566:7,18,21; 
567:1,7,9, 24; 568:2; 
569:4,6,14,18, 22; 
570:23; 571:25; 572:1,2, 
5, 11; 577:11, 15, 18,18, 
21,22; 584:2,12; 586:13, 
-14^-597^-10, .11^606:£, 



14 

perceive 487:15 
percent 441:25; 442:3; 
585:25 

percentage 420:23; 

442:1 

perception 422:9, 16, 19; 
423:15; 548:10 
perfect 498:25 
perfectly 432:7:461:19; 
473:1 5; 488:8; 500:2; 



577:8 

performed 430:15 
perhaps 484:8; 485:17; 
526:14; 555:3; 566:12; 
570:15; 572:13; 608:3 
period 440:17; 447:4; 
475:12; 498:20; 596:7 
permission 511:19; 
531:12 
permit 574:7 
permits 436:2; 454:8; 
487:11 

permitted 501:2; 502:21; 
503:15; 536:3; 537:15 
person 433:19; 434:21, 
25; 435:5; 483:8; 498:1; 
543:2,3; 566:2; 570:10; 
576:20, 21; 598:5,8 
personal 453 2, 3; 
466:17; 488:23; 492:9, 11; 
503:8; 542:7 
persons 507:12 
Ph.D 552:7; 585:13 
phase 480:1 
phenomenon 573:14 
Phillips 442:20; 476:6 
phone 608:22 
physical 583:18; 585:8 
physically 536:1; 537:12 
physics 583:19 
pick 468:3; 583:20, 23; 
584:18, 23; 585:1 
picked 450:6 
picking 424:6; 485:22 

picture 421:5; 422:3; 
436:25; 470:18, 21; 
477:20; 478:15; 484:6; 
493:17; 504:17; 506:17; 
509:4; 510:8; 512:8; 
521:8; 533:2; 568:13,17; 
585:21 

pictures 417:20; 422:3; 
532:19 

piece 465:2; 478:24, 25; 
538:23; 539:14 
pieces 592:23 
pile 551:11 
Pioneer 508:14 
piracy 422:1; 431:4, 8, 9; 
583:6, 6, 7,11,12; 593:11, 
15; 594:4,9; 595:6 
pirate 576:16 
pirates 547:25 



pirating 544:17 

place 423:11; 431:20; 
447:12:492:23; 501:6; 
556:6; 558:22; 561: 16; 
562:12; 573:5; 575:22; 
583:17; 589:20, 22; 590:1, 
2 

placed 447:3 

plaintiff 417:1,551:5; 
585:12; 606:16 
plaintiff's 425:18; 608:1 
plaintiffs 418:5; 448:20; 



536:23; 554:2, 3 
plan 421:20; 427:24; 
428:25; 439:23, 25; 440:5; 
454:23; 557:10, 15; 558:5; 
569:7; 608:21 

planning 487:6; 557:23 
plans 454:21; 492:19; 
557:11; 558:7 

plastic 488:14 
platform 573:1,7 
play 437:10; 442:22; 
451:10;454:8, 12; 476:11; 
481:5; 482:24; 487:23; 
489:3,4, 12; 490:2, 19; 
491:11; 505:5, 13, 18,22; 
506:2; 536:4,6,9; 537:15; 
542:20, 21; 572:3, 24 
played 445:22; 543:10 
player 438:24; 451:10; 
454:9, 9, 16; 486:21; 
487:3, 23; 489:10, 11,11, 
23; 490:1, 19; 491:1, 5, 1 1, 
12,19; 509:19; 536:1,7,9; 
537:12; 538:19, 25; 
542:10, 17, 21; 543:2, 3; 
563:12; 571:7,14,14; 
572:12 

players 417:22; 418:3; 
442:19, 22, 25; 443:2, 4; 
444:4; 451:17, 18, 19; 
476:7; 506:20, 23; 543:11; 
570:2,18, 23, 24; 571:22; 
572:3, 5, 14, 18; 574:3 
playing 536:1; 537:12 

plays 444:8; 491:5; 
538:24 

pleadings 555:13 
please 417:7; 418:11; 
428:8; 447:1; 452:1 1; 
460:17; 480:21; 502:4; 
527:19; 538:14; 546:11; 
552:12; 554:16; 557:14; 
560:10, 20; 598:2 
pleasure 598:20 
plugged 489:25; 490:2 
point4l3:15;4l4:22; 
415:16; 416:6, 15; 436:9; 
452:18; 463:23; 468:13; 
469:14,16; 475:9; 480:18; 
483:20; 504:4, 5; 518:7; 
522:25; 523:1, 18; 526:17; 
554:11; 556:3 
pointed 589:4 

points 413:10; 498:19; 
532:22 

Polaroid 580:14; 58TTT0T 
11, 14 

policy 477:25; 536:3 
polite 570:7 
port 493:10 

portion 529:19, 21; 562:1 
portions 576:3; 588:2 
ports 450:25; 493:22 
pose 535:21 
posed 588:11, 590:1 
posit 577:5 



positing 576:14 
position 462:3,7; 
488:21; 499:7; 536:3, 9; 
541:14; 543:1; 560:22; 
569:25; 570:6; 584:11; 
595:19; 596:13; 604:2 
position/policy 537:14 
positions 551:19 
possession 416:17 
possibility 462:20; 501:4 
possible 608:16 
possibly 568:6 
post 534:6 
posted 452:5, 8 
posting 435:8; 548:8 
postings 550.1 
potential 421:8, 446:14; 
447:15; 530:14 
potentially 534:19 
Power 512:8, 16; 573:10 
practical 550:3 
practice 422: 18; 459:1 
practiced 474:11 
precise 556:14, 18; 
575:14; 602:3 
precisely 570:24; 600:18 
precision 467:17 
preclude 500:1 
predecessor 468:14; 
504:21 

predict 494:2 
prefer 563:1 
preliminary 555:14; 
580:7; 590:24; 607:20 
premise 424.9; 443:5 
premium 557:18; 564:7, 
10; 565:3,8; 568:7 
preparation 579:1 1; 
598:21,23 
prepare 596:25 
prepared 432:5; 446:24; 
483:13, 16; 500:24; 
531:19; 539:22; 561:7; 
582:10; 599:16 
presence 558:16 
present 484:18; 508:23; 
546:1, 21; 547:6, 22; 
548:25; 564:16; 581:25 
president 461:12; 
464:22; 528:18; 552:17 
press 415:12, 13, 15; 
455:3, 8, 17; 456:10; 
4S8:7: 4S9:1^21;460:S: 
470:2; 488:5; 505:2; 
548:15 

Presumably 483:24; 
498:21; 564:11 
presume 507:20; 536:25; 
597:16 

presumes 567:25 
presumption 570:9 
pretend 494:12 
pretrial 607:13 
pretty 601:22 



previous 570:8; 578:25 
previously 417:2; 
430:25; 491:17; 575:19; 
577:15; 584:2; 603:11 
price 508:7, 14; 553:12, 
15,15,16; 563:2; 564:8, 9; 
566:4,5,6, 11,12; 567:8, 
9; 577:10; 597:5; 601:10, 
14,20 

priced 571:7; 577:22 
prices 562:23; 563:4; 
565:24, 25; 566:23, 24; 
567:6; 568:4 
primarily 555:3 
primary 566:2 
Princeton 595:21,24 
principal 553:3,6, 24 
principles 576:19 
prior 422:18; 430:2, 8; 
445:17;455:1:471:15,20; 
475:12; 476:16; 479:10; 
481:1; 502:6; 549:2; 
587:13; 593:20; 596:25; 
601:18 

private 420:6 
privilege 456:14; 457:24; 
458:10; 459:14 
privileged 456.8 

probably 417:24; 451:19; 
457:21; 475:8; 494:4; 
517:2; 529:6; 530:15; 
558:2; 581:2; 608:5 
problem 4 16:9; 4 19:6: 
422:2, 5; 427:12; 466:5, 
15, 16, 21; 481:22; 497:3; 
506:12, 14, 16; 507:1; 
574:12,13, 19; 576:5,6 
problems 422:15; 574:8 
proceed 413:20; 464:6; 
467:24;471:17;473:5; 
535:5; 551:9; 606:19 
proceeding 413:3; 
474:22 

proceedings 534:4; 
610:2 

process 485:12; 494:7; 
495:24; 505:13 
processing 573:19 
processors 586:5,6 
produce 518:17; 556:10; 
557:2; 608:5 

produced 429:7; 455:24; 
456:7; 520:16; 557:21; 
565:10; 591:8 

product 418:22; 419:8, 
11, 15, 17, 18;420:10, 13; 
421:2,4,6:423:1 U 16; 
438:23;443:1;445:15, 16; 
451:1; 455:19, 22; 457:24; 
462:6; 470:21; 472:6, 11, 
12, 22; 473:17, 21; 476:15; 
477:16; 478:4; 479:24, 25; 
480:1,2,17, 22; 495:7; 
512:18; 516:19; 517:12, 
14, 21; 518:1; 523:9; 
544:16,17; 547:1,2, 2,16, 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



Min-U-Script® 



(13) participating - product 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C REIMERDES, et al 



24,25; 548:3,11,12; 
549:1; 562:5; 576:24; 
577:1; 597:8, 11 

products 420:3, 25; 
476:11; 505:16; 506:13; 
510:7; 549:1 
professional 547:25; 
551:19; 552:9, 18 
Professor 551:3, 16; 
555:5; 562:4, 1 1; 565:1 1; 
566:15; 574:15,16,23; 
575:8; 576:10, 1 1; 578:4; 
586:22; 593:9; 594:11,19; 
595:3, 5, 13, 21, 24; 604:3 
proficient 605:1 

profit 420:24; 548: 13, 13; 
557:22; 558:16, 18 
profitable 558:10 
profits 558:20; 570:22 
programmers 527:1,9 
programs 573:19, 20 
prohibit 534:22 
prohibiting 536:13 
project 452:3; 488:14; 
552:1,2 

projected 421:17; 583:10 
projection 427:16; 
440:23 

projections 417:24; 
421:19; 439:24; 440:3, 6, 
12, 14, 22; 441:11, 13, 17, 

20, 23 

prominent 552:18 
promised 538:4 
promote 571:9 
promoting 570:17, 
572:17,17 
prong 478:11 
proof 414:1; 424:24; 
425:1, 11, 15,20,25; 
426:16,19, 24; 427:6, 11, 
13; 430:24; 431:2; 446:19, 
21; 447:8, 21; 501:1, 16; 
502:24,25; 503:12,19, 20; 
507:23; 512:10; 519:7; 
546:24;590:4 

proper 493: 11 
properties 597:3 
property 431:1 1; 507:16; 
509:24; 510:10, 13; 
557:10, 11; 567:5; 572:20 
proposal 446:7; 470:20; 
476:19; 477:13 
proposals 493:2. 3 
proposed 415:5; 471:7; 
559:18 

propositions 432 3 
proprietors 557:9 
Proskauer 554:1, 
597:21; 599:1, 2 
prospect 558:17; 568:1 
protect 422:25; 449:20: 
450:1, 6; 470:21; 471:11; 
478:16:479:2:480:2; 
495:7; 521:22; 550:8 



protected 422:24; 
477:17; 494:15; 573:11 
protecting 418:18 

protection 4 18: 19, 23, 

24; 420:2, 10, 11; 426:7, 9; 
428:5; 475:25; 478:1; 
493:1 1,23; 499:20, 21; 
504:14; 514:6, 9,10,11, 
16, 18; 515:3, 13, 23; 
516:25; 518:10, 17; 
521:16,16,17; 532:23; 
533:3; 541:22; 543:20; 
555:20 

protective 499:18 
protects 450:23 
protestations 416:2 

protocol 451:2; 493:16; 
494:10, 14 
protocols 492:25 
prove 497:9, 9; 500:1; 
519:5; 583:21; 591:10 
proved 520:11 
provide 418:19;431:10; 
446:2;451:7; 511:3, 10; 
535:2; 543:20; 574:8 
provided 415:5; 421:4; 
446:3; 534:14 
Provider 436:7 
Providers 548:6; 550:10 

provides 421:21; 487:19; 
538:15 

provoke 434:16 
public 422:6, 12; 423:14, 
15;458:19, 24;459:9, 13, 
15; 478:2; 482:12; 488:21; 
491:2, 20; 496:23; 517:8, 
9; 545:16, 17; 550:9 
public's 422:2, 7; 550:4 
published 537:4; 538:13; 
553:19 
pull 506:4 

punch 453.11, 15, 18 
punching 453:23 
purchase 454:9; 576:20, 
22 

purchased 445:3; 
489:23, 24; 503:7; 536:2; 
537:13 

purchaser 542:6, 9; 
543:1 

purchases 541:21 
purchasing 419:14; 
568:25 

purport 414:23 
purported 466:24 
purporting ^66:24 
purports 484:12 
purpose 469:11; 474:22; 
476:25; 504:24; 523:6; 
534:5; 548:19,23; 582:11; 
600:19 

purposes 484:19 
pursuant 536:23; 609:21 
pursue 436:11;473:14; 
51 1:22; 535:24 



purveyors 573:18 
put 423:4, 13; 433:7; 
436:23; 444:9; 447:14; 
451:15, 20,25;459:11; 
460:1; 474:15, 19; 477:7; 
491:17; 492:22; 501:6,14; 
502:4; 506:10; 507:13; 
516:13; 517:7; 523:16; 
555:18; 558:13; 559:22; 
566:5; 574:13; 581:11; 
584:12; 597:23; 606: 14 
putting 452:4; 491:21; 
575:13; 593:20; 607:24; 
608:20 



Q 



Q 527:21; 561:4; 580:8, 
17 

quality 457:12; 477:16; 
505:18; 562:12; 565:14, 
21,25,25; 566:4,5,6, 8, 
10; 596:14 

quantification 421:17 
quantified 428:7 
quantify 421:8 
quantitative 552:19 
quart 576:24 
quarter 560:18; 608:13 
quickest 414:8 
quickly 468:4, 517:22; 
588:3 

quite 417:22, 25; 434:7; 
474:8; 481:6, 15; 507:17; 
514:7; 553:23; 554:19; 
555:25; 557:5, 15; 558:1; 
563:17; 568:3; 574:11; 
581:3,11,12,14; 587:11; 
588:3, 12, 13 
quote 457:4; 461:8; 
465:21; 466:24, 25; 522:4 
quoted 580:8; 604:6 
quotes 457:5 



R 



R-l-A-A 603:18 
R-l-0 603:19,21 
raise 474:7 
raised 448:23; 474:9 
raising 537:6 
ramifications 530:14 
Rarely 454:2 
rate 578:6; 586:8 

rather 4 16:7; 489:11; 
499:23; 507:21; 529:8; 
550:9; 563:1; 564:25; 
567:1; 568:8; 589:8 
ratio 576:15; 577:6 
rational 529:2,12,19,25 
RCA 548:25 
re-think 512:14 
reaction 434:16, 588:10 
read4l4:17;4l8:ll,12; 



434:11; 447:9; 448:18; 
462:16; 504:7; 524:4, 6, 7; 
527:2, 3, 19; 529:5, 6; 
530:10, 16; 539:4; 540:15; 
541:2, 2; 554:9; 555:9, 12, 
13,13,15,15, 15; 556:24; 
560:12; 562:2; 567:15; 
574:15; 588:2; 592:14,15; 
595:5,18; 601:8,12,17 
readily 414:17; 474:24 
reading 498:24; 527:21; 
528:3, 5; 580:5,7; 594:20 
ready 517:1 1,24; 606:19 
real 483:20,22, 24; 
484:21; 494:9, 16; 548:13 
reality 468:24 
realize 538:5; 571:22 
really 424:13; 483:19; 
485:21; 504:9; 517:19; 
542:14; 554:21; 570:14; 
581:3; 588:1; 591:1 1; 
605:11; 606:7 

realtime 534:5, 11 

reason 418:20; 451 :9; 
459:7; 474:7; 495:1; 
501:3; 544:20; 578:19 
reasonable 570:9 
reasonably 475:7 
reasons 571:21; 581:1 
recall 425:23;436:15; 
442:9; 457:10, 14; 522:15; 
526:8; 529:4; 531:4; 
538:10; 574:14; 578:18, 
19; 580:6; 586:22; 587:13; 
589:6, 16 

receive 484:19:529:18; 
530:17; 552:4, 5; 575:10, 
11 

received 467:12; 484:12; 
511:13; 524:15; 529:20, 
23; 530:1, 2, 21; 552:6, 9, 
13; 559:25; 560:2 
receiving 534:5 
recent 510:25 
recently 553:24; 586:9, 
11 

Recess 467:13; 533:10; 
575:25 

recognize 473:3; 479:17; 
556:12; 561:13; 591:19 
recognized 471:1 
recognizes 500:13 
recollection 428:4; 
439:7; 457:21; 458:8; 
461:15, 17; 491:3; 515:10, 
21; 516:23; 527:24; 
595:19 

recommendations 

524:8,10,15 
record 413:4, 7; 417:4; 
418:12;434:11;445:8, 9; 
462:16; 477:8; 482:12; 
504:7; 527:3; 528:1 1; 
567:15; 576:18, 22; 595:1; 
599:23; 601:17; 604:12 
Recording 470.25; 
471:3; 472:15; 473:16; 



476:24; 477:20, 22; 480:8; 
485:19; 504:19; 576:17, 
20, 23 

recordings 472:19 
records 416:11; 576:22; 
591:3,3,4,6 
recross 549:19 

RECROSS- 
EXAMINATION 549:21 

REDIRECT 543:17 

reduce 558:19; 564:1 

reduced 568:23 

reduces 568:2 

refer 544:10 

reference 518:25 

references 453:16 

referred 435:9; 603:11, 
18 

referring 432:16: 515:15; 
540:14; 591:12:604:18, 
20 

reflected 548:15 
reflects 413:4 
refresh 461:14; 470:16; 
515:9:527:24 
refreshes 515:21 
refreshing 461:17 
regard 494:17; 569:6 
regime 478:12; 479:4 
regular 507:12; 569:6; 
602:7; 603:4 
regularly 452:5,8 
regulation 477:1 
rejected 476:19 
related 547:16; 555:3; 
572:1; 596:4 
relates 428:1; 447:8; 
463:22; 482:14; 530:4; 
544:11 

relating 432:18; 593:21; 
601:14 

relations 458: 19, 24; 
459:9 

relationship 512:25; 
536:11; 541:1; 583:12; 
593:10, 14; 594:4, 25; 
595:6, 14; 601:10, 19 
relative 559:15; 565:21 
relatively 440:17; 
522:10; 529:2, 19; 571:17, 
18; 608:4 

relax 469:21; 605:5, 5 
release 417:20; 441:24; 
442: 10; 455:8. 17:456:10; 
153:7, 24: 459:9, 10,21; 
^74:2; 480:18, 22; 557:16, 
16; 558:3, 6, 7; 564:13; 
566:22; 567:22; 568:5,5; 
597:13 

released 440:21; 441:1, 
17,18, 22; 445:10; 456:10, 
14,16,17,19, 20; 458.6, 
23; 4 59: 16; 468: 20; 469: 5; 
471:22; 472:22; 473:21; 
476:11, 480:17; 517:7, 12, 



products - released (14) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



14, 15; 518:1; 543:21; 
563:16, 20; 564:18; 
566:16 

releases 455:3; 459:13, 
13; 460:6 

releasing 473:17; 
492:19; 544:18 
relevance 446:9; 469:6; 
487:6, 7; 489:20; 499: 17; 
502:19, 22; 513:4; 519:8, 
21; 525:14; 526:16; 
527:13; 530:8; 531:15; 
532:12, 24; 538:20; 
542:13 

relevancy 537:19 
relevant 413:12; 446:23; 
448:4, 5; 489:6; 490:5; 
504:1; 519:6; 523:3,6, 8, 
14; 527:15; 530:10 
relied 554:17, 19: 583:15; 
604:3 

relief 467:23 
relies 554:22 
religious 477:9 
relying 560:9 
remain 609:13 
remarks 415:22 
remedies 573:25; 574:1 
remedy 574:12 

remember 431:5; 439:9; 
442:6,8, 10; 457:4, 5; 
462:12; 463:4, 9; 464:17; 
465:12, 15; 470:7, 15; 
471:23, 25; 473:20; 
480:16; 485:16, 22; 489:1; 
493:16, 495:19; 507:6; 
512:14; 514:16, 18, 19, 20, 
25;515:4,5, 6,25;5l6:l; 
517:2; 521:12; 526:11, 14; 
528:2; 531:7, 13; 555:16; 
559:12; 580:13,13,16; 
586:25; 604:6 
remind 467:22 
render 506:5; 556:20 
rendered 500:22 
rentals 563:13 
rented 563:9 
repeat 546:11 
repeating 424:22 
repetition 592:12 
repetitive 588:17 

rephrase 425:9; 433:15; 
434:8; 450:2; 527:7; 
545:15 

replacing 439:17 
replicate 429:20; 430:11, 
17,21 

replicator 437:1,6; 
517:21 

replicators 485:10; 
505:1 

report 521:25; 529:23; 
530:1, 532:21; 593:9, 13, 
21 

reported 413:11 



reporter 466:19; 534:5, 
14; 535:3 

reporters 534:10,19 
reports 593:2,19, 20 
representation 469:23, 
24 

representative 415:13 
representatives 425:5; 
475:22; 480:9; 509:3,10 
represented 418:5 
represents 576:17 
reproduce 576:20 
reproduction 576:14 
reproductions 558:23; 
559:1; 562:13, 15 
request 414:5; 415:6; 
534:3; 575:24 
requested 430:10; 
^35: 25; 51 1: 19 
require 483:9 
requires 474:24; 490:18; 
538:18 

resale 420:24 
research 506:15:551:23; 
599:23 
resell 421:3 
reselling 420:20 
reservations 584:9 
resources 432:9; 451:3, 
25; 553:12 

respect 429:22; 435:10; 
440:6; 441:9; 461:24; 
462:17, 19; 471:18; 
475:10; 486:16; 488:6, 22; 
492:10, 21, 24; 493:1, 7; 
495:6; 497:4; 498:23; 
503:3, 4; 538:9; 540:24; 
541:15, 16; 542:5; 549:3; 
558:18; 559:20, 24; 586:4; 
589:12; 593:6; 594:8; 
598:4; 600:16; 608:12 
respectfully 414:5; 
458:22 

respects 541:7 
respond 446:22; 458:15; 
523:1 

response 415:7; 424:16; 
499:24; 532:1, 2 
responsibility 478:20 
restrict 491:7 
restriction 529:21 
restrictions 491:1, 19 
restricts 491:12; 572:25; 
573:6 

result 425:21; 426:16: 
427:17; 428:2; 440:1, 7; 
492: ! 8; 504:21:537:7; 
545:12; 550:5; 555:21; 
563:2: 570:4; 578:11; 
597:17 

results 493:6; 506:21 
resumed 416:25 
retained 521.9; 554:1, 5, 
6; 590:23 
retyping 529:21 



revenue 420:13; 421:8; 
558:9; 569:21,24 
revenues 420:14, 14; 
563:2; 567:7,8; 569:16,17 
reverse 504:1 
rid 546:12; 551:10 
right 415:15; 416:23; 
422:24;425:6; 429:11; 
431:14; 437:7, 12; 439:11, 
15; 441:15; 442:1, 23; 
443:6; 450:1; 452:6, 20; 
453:9, 23; 457:25; 460:8; 
464:16; 467:1 1,23; 
472:19, 24; 475:12; 
476:12; 480:13; 481:25; 
490:20; 491:3, 13,20; 
492:11;494:19; 495:3,4, 
11; 496:4; 503:10; 505:3; 
506:6; 508:24; 51 1:2; 

S14-6 S1614 1Q 70; 

531:16; 535:5; 538:13; 
539:15; 542:7,8; 543:7; 
566:9; 567:12; 574:25; 
575:7; 578:21; 579:14; 
584:5; 586:16; 594:1; 
599:14; 602:2; 606:14, 24; 
608:10,15, 24; 609:23 
right-hand 532:18 
righter 578:20 

Rights 470:25; 471:3; 
472:15; 476:24: 480:6, 8; 
485:19; 488:13; 504:19; 
534:10; 535:13,18; 
536:25; 564:3 
Rio 588:22; 594:12; 
603:21,22 
rip 512:18 

Rippers 512:9, 16, 16 
rising 497:11 
risk421:24;422:l;428:7, 
11; 558:20 

risks 421:20; 428:5, 6 
River 424:8, 10, 12; 
551:24; 579:7; 588:14 
RK 460:9: 466:22; 
467:12; 543:23; 544:2,3 
robust 417:25; 511:3 
robustness 496:15; 
506:8; 530:4,18; 531:15; 
532:1 

ROM 451:20 

room 459:11; 464:19; 
465:10; 471:5, 8; 576:4 
Rose 554:1 

roughly 562:23; 578:21; 
579:5,13; 585:25; 603:5 
round 43S:o,6 
royalty i39:6; 510:3, 14 
rule 465:23; 466:4; 
503:25; 559:19; 606:18 
ruled 464:9; 522:21 
rules 446:2; 478:10; 
505:6, 7, 11; 534:21 
ruling 449:1; 504:1; 
524:2; 525:17 
rulings 475:5 



run 416:5; 559:22; 572:9, 
10; 609:17 
running 510.14 
runs 510:4; 512:3 
RV 460:14 
Ryan 486:8 



S 



safe 506:2 

sale 420:4; 421:5; 441:14; 
443:1;445:12; 562:20; 
563:3; 576:16,17; 597:17 
sales 417:19, 22, 25; 
419:17, 18;421:7;427:17; 
428:2; 437:15, 18,438:20; 
439:10; 440:1, 6, 13, 13; 
447:16; 563:13; 565:13; 
S69:12 r U, 14 : 16:571:10: 
572:15,16,18; 576:15; 
583:6, 6,11,11:586:4; 
593:7, 11, 15, 23; 594:5, 9, 
25; 595:7, 14; 597:24; 
600:1, 7; 604:11 
same4l4:20;429 21; 
437:2; 438:6; 449:8; 
465:2; 474:5; 483:1; 
490:23; 511:24; 519:7,8; 
524:17; 533:4; 562:24, 25; 
566:24; 570:3; 572:10; 
577:20; 594:7,10,15 
sarcasm 434:15 
sat 451:24; 471:8; 
477:12, 18, 24; 512:19 
save 413:25; 414:14; 
434:17; 529:8 
saw 425:25; 426:21; 
427:1; 429:10; 430:10, 12; 
432:11:457:18,25; 
462:22; 463:7, 7; 548:9; 
598:3 

saying 424:4; 455:3; 
456:22; 457:6; 462:12; 
465:15; 466:19; 477:6, 6; 
496:23; 507:6; 522:1; 
523:19, 21; 531:4; 548:8; 
564:21,23; 570:12; 
581:23 

schedule 568:5 
scheduling 467:15; 
605:9, 10, 13 
scheme 481:1,4; 510:9; 
522:9 

scholars 552:3 
scholarship 552:24; 
554:17 

scholarships 552:9 
School 585:15 
Schulman 460:25 
Schumann 416:14; 
432:11; 512:20; 520:13 
Schumann's 416:5, 18; 
417:6 

Science 552:24; 585:15 
Sciences 552:22 
scope 448:3 



scramble 478:4 
scrambling 522:9 
scratch 471:9 
scribbled 526:23 
scribbling 591:17, 18,19 
scribblings 526:4 
SD 468:17; 470:11 
seal 484:23 
search 453:11, 18,22; 
454:3; 474:23 
Seattle 486:11 

second 417:5;418:25; 
419:6; 440:24; 448:4; 
466:23; 478:24; 514:22; 
543:24; 570:17; 607:17 

Secondly 418:25; 
461:19; 478:19; 571:22; 
573:10 

-Se ction 474:9; 19 ^9; 

539:22 

security 447:14; 450:10, 
11, 14;451:11;468:19,21, 
25; 469:20; 470:14; 471:9, 
20, 21; 472:10, 18, 22; 
473:18; 475:8, 9, 11; 
492:21:495:6; 505:22; 
517:4; 519:9; 543:19 
seeing 425:23: 495:19; 
526:14; 535:15; 567:10 
seeking 434:22 
seem 448:5 
seems 413:7; 414:7; 
458:16; 466:22; 473:15; 
487:8; 488:4; 490:6; 
513:1; 515:18; 531:17; 
536:18 
sees 538:23 
Sega 483:2; 500:12, 22 
segments 566:16; 
567:22 

selective 513:2 
sell433:ll;454:17; 
488:10; 510:7; 563:5 
selling 489:14 
sells 488:10,12 
sending 429:23; 596:4 
sends 423:12; 548:19 
senior 507:13, 15, 17; 
528:18 

sense 442:13, 15; 
518:22; 571:2; 577:9; 
600:8 

sensitive 415:11 
sent 414:2; 424:25, 25; 
425:12; 435:16, 17; 456:8; 
478:24; 592:23; 598:8,9 
sentence 464:11; 
466:23; 521:3,4; 522:14, 
16; 530:11 

sentences 530:9, 10; 
587:24; 591:13 
separate 485:8; 535:15; 
582:25; 592:20 
separately 476:2; 580:21 
September 470:9 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



Min-U-Script® 



(15) releases - September 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



series 460:4, 5; 534:9; 
563:16 

serious 562:3 
seriously 507:17 
serve 423:24 
served 423:24; 559:19, 
23 

server 435 21 

servers 435:24; 436:3; 
571:20; 586:7,7,8 
Service 436:7; 548:6; 
550:10; 564:10 
servicing 579:12 
set 428:7; 478:1; 494:11, 
16; 51 1:24: 517:1, 3; 
557:20; 568:8; 572:2; 
574:13 

several 4 16:4; 466:3; 
512:19; 516:13; 543:15; 
554:24:555:5, 18; 558:21: 
562:19; 592:23: 599:19 
SF 520:24; 525:9 
Shall 524:1; 574:13; 
608:17 

Shamos 429:10, 21: 
430:2, 7,10,15,21; 
512:20 

share 433:11; 434.22 
shareholder 579: 15 
shares 435:1 
sharing 422:1; 433:19, 
20:435:5 
shed 530:2 
sheet 466:23 
sheets 591:2 
shelf 433:7 
shift 565:1 
Shinoda 481:18 
short 420:24; 440:17; 
447:4; 476:21, 23; 546:7; 
608:4,6,9 
shortly 535:9 
show4l7:24;421:23; 
440:12, 22; 441:13, 23; 
447:8, 23; 455:4; 460:9; 
465:16; 478:20; 481:11; 
482:13; 497:7; 505:3; 
514:13; 520:20; 523:8, 12; 
524:20, 525:22; 530:10, 
24; 532:14; 540:14; 
544:25; 548:18, 20, 23,24; 
549:2, 4 

showed 465: 5, 20; 
528:15,16 

showing 425:1 1:525:18 
shown 462:1; 465:2; 
501:3; 526:8; 603:10 
shows 434:24: 440:14; 
446:24; 466:4; 497:2; 
531:18 

side 467:20; 604:12; 
608:19 

sidebar 413:23; 446:24: 
473:13; 535:8; 609:22 
sides 581:19; 591:12 



sign 483:9; 490:19 
signatories 482:24 
signature 598:10 

signed 586:25; 587:3,14; 
592:14,20, 24; 598:5, 6,8 
significance 466:12; 
519:19; 535:21 
significant 441:22; 
494:10 

signing 536:2; 537:13 
silent 609:13 
similar 449:19; 450:2; 
463:7; 465:20, 21; 471:2; 
482:2 

Simon 595:17 

simple 474:7; 505:6, 16; 

518:23 

simply 413:13; 565:8; 
574:6; 580:2 

SIMS414:11;415:5; 
456:7; 514:14; 518:21; 
525:23:535:2 
Simultaneously 451:5; 
480:15 

Singapore 431:22 
single 414:1; 424:24; 
425:12;426:12;451:3; 
597:16 

sit 510:18; 513:21 
site 600:9 

sites 435:8, 10, 12. 14; 
436:4 

sits 510:24 

sitting 415:21:458:17, 
18, 23, 25; 459:10; 509:2; 
606:24 

situation 422:23; 451:6; 
452:1; 459:24; 477:13; 
547:21; 562:21 
six 434:12; 560:18; 
590:12 

skip 469:13, 17, 24 
Sleepless 486:11 
small 420:23; 440: 18; 
505:21; 506:2; 571:17,18 
so-called 456:22; 580:24 
Society 552:18,22 
software 417:25; 437:8; 
511:4, 11; 573:19; 574:11 
sold 418:3; 427:1, 18; 
582:14,17,18, 20,21; 
586:17 

solution 414:16, 18; 
493:4; 507:1, 8, 10, 11 
Somebody 452:21; 
466:17; 475:8, 9; 484:20; 
488:11; 498:21; 508:18; 
523:16; 527:16; 542:16, 
16, 18; 573:13:575:18: 
597:18; 606:19 
somehow 445:10; 
486:17 

someone 427:1; 4 39:1 3; 
474:1 1; 479:3: 54 3:9: 
560:10 



Sometimes 427:9 
somewhat 557:12; 
564:21; 565:2, 6; 566:1; 
580:3; 581:20; 584:12 
somewhere 424:18; 
582:1 

songwriter 581:5,9 

Sony 476:5; 493:15; 
500:12, 14; 503:6; 518:21; 
548:25 

sooner 517:23 
Sorkin 461:6 
sorry 436:7; 440:9; 
473:10; 486:13; 525:23; 
530:6; 556:24; 574:22; 
589:23; 598:25; 600:13 
sort 573:20 
sought 501:20; 532:11 
soul 415:17 

sound 444:10, 17; 487:9; 
542:11; 574:12; 600:13 
sounds 506:8 
source 425:16; 426:1, 
13, 17; 462:4, Il;463:l6, 
19, 22; 464:2; 572:24 
sourced 571:7 
Southern 593:14 
speak4l9:21;421:18; 
422:12, 13; 427:20; 
462:22; 463:1, 6; 575:23; 
583:2 

speaking 492:5; 548:4, 
14 

speaks 448:7; 492:1 
special 567:1 
specialization 553:1,7 
specializing 552:19 
specific 4X4:24; 4\6:\4; 
486:6; 580:18, 20; 589:16; 
600:25 

specifically 416:12; 
428:3, 10, 14; 454:24; 
544:10; 554:9; 561:15; 
580:15; 588:24; 589:25; 
593:22; 594:3,8; 596:4 

specification 444:17, 18 
specifications 505:14 
specifics 481:3 
speculate 494:25; 496:6 
speculation 452:16; 
495:15; 503:24 
speech 492:6 
speed 495:23 
speeds 556:2; 596:3; 
600:12,15,20,21 
spend 527:21; 598:23 
spent 433:1; 450:19; 
498:19; 578:8; 587:14; 
591:4; 598:18, 21 
spoke 594:11 
spoken 41513, 14, 17 
spread 550:9 
stab 542:24 
staggered 563:17 



stamp 456:8 
stamped 456:6; 518:20 

stand 451:19; 484:5; 
574:18; 606:21 
standard 427:10, 444:10, 
12, 13, 15, 16, 22; 505:19; 
532:22; 539:8; 578:6 
standards 470:11; 
505:17,18 

stands 472:14; 487:20; 
493:12 

start 424:17; 468:6, 8; 
469:17; 470:14; 487:9; 
534:1; 555:8; 570:12; 
580:5 

started 413:1; 451:16; 
468:25; 469:19; 470:4, 19; 
471:8; 476:19; 479:17; 
495:23; 517:20; 544:18; 
548:5, 8; 550:4; 607:25 
starts 443:5; 540:17 
state 436:17; 473:22; 
475:18; 490:15; 551:7 
Stated 489:21; 576:11 
statement 461:23; 467:5; 
529:24:546:14:559:19; 
571:11 

statements 456:21; 
457:10, 14 

States 418:1; 426:25; 
442:4; 452:13; 453:4; 
476:3; 480:25; 489:12, 23, 
24; 538:15; 547:19; 571:6; 
572:23;575:8; 585:23 
stations 557:20 
statistic 588:19 
statistical 553:5 
statistics 597.23 
status 493:4 
statute 448:7, 10, 11, 12, 
15, 18; 499:19; 500:19; 
535:11; 536:12; 539:2,4, 
14, 21, 21; 540:9, 23; 
541:1,2,4 

statutes 492:17 
steal 547:25 
stealing 479:3 
still 417:10; 420:12; 
490:4; 512:10; 531:15; 
543:23; 551:25; 564:14; 
581:12; 584:9; 590:3 
stimulate 569:11 
stipulate 413:16, 17; 
484:9; 485:6; 488:7; 
526:15 

stipulation 432:2, 2; 
576:3 

stipulations 413:24; 
414:5; 415:6; 424:23 
stop 424:8; 447:1 5; 
448: 1:492: 19; 496:3; 
524:1 

stopped 47 1:8; 497:3; 
499:3; 553:6 
stopping 500:2 
stops 496:8 



storage 556:2 
store 443:4; 503:7; 
577:16,22,23 
stores 442:12, 14, 19; 
577:19 

strategic 421:20 
stream 420:14; 470:25 
street 427:18 
strength 514:18 
strenuously 461:21 
strike 484:20 
strikes 574:6 
strong 451:2; 514:20; 
557:5 

strongly 477:11 
structure 436:1 5; 477:3; 
482:22; 536:19, 20; 537:5; 
541:1 

student 514:23; 516:3 
studies 582:6, 10, 25; 
583:1; 593:2, 5; 597:22; 
601:9, 15, 18 
studio 418:16; 420:21; 
422:9, 16; 424:22; 425:8, 
10, 24:426:4, 11, 15,20, 
24; 427:16, 20,21:433:23, 
24; 435:3; 436:25; 437:5; 
438:8; 449:5, 5; 451:3; 
457:6; 468:24; 475:22; 
519:10; 548:4; 554:2 
studio's 417:20; 567:12, 
21 

studios 417:16; 418:20; 
419:7, 10;420:19;421:1, 
2, 5, 7, 422:13; 424:17; 
425:2, 5;430:3,20,22; 
432:8, 23,25;435:11; 
436:19; 438:8; 446:20; 
447:24; 448:2; 449:3; 
450:19;451:5,24;452:3; 
471:5; 474:5; 475:23; 
485:10; 494:13; 506:16, 
17; 509:10; 510:8; 512:8; 
523:3:541:20; 547:24; 
567:17; 568:9,12; 583:3,9 
study 447:5; 553:10, 15; 
601:8 

stuff 551:10; 584:1 
Sturm 520:14 
subject 446:17; 469:22; 
474:13; 476:25; 477:8, 10; 
478:10; 484:20, 22; 
524:18; 553:17; 554:23; 
584:5; 596:18; 600:25 
submitted 560:3,4 
subpart 539:24; 540:2 
subscribe 564.9 
substance 457:5; 459:2; 
476:21; 523:24; 566:14 
substantial 558:2; 562:6; 
575:3, 19; 590:8 
substantially 464:16; 
553:21; 563:4; 577:20 

substitute 451:13 
succeed 573 24 
successful 417:22; 



series - successful (16) 



Min-U-Script® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



581:3; 586:8 
successfully 483 2 
suffer 421:9 
suffered 523:14, 15 
suffers 573:16 
Sufficient 609:15 
sufficiently 482:1 
suggest 458:22; 500:20; 
518:7; 519:4; 607:1 
suggested 413:24 
suggesting 500:11 
suggestion 413:2; 
542:15 

suggests 577:9 
suing 536:23 
summa 552:6 
summaries 518:9, 11 
superior 447:12 
suppose 414:22; 453:6; 
459:19; 542:18; 570:12, 
20; 574:7 

supposed 442:22: 
503:13, 14; 553:9; 560:1; 
607:3,7 

sure 422:19; 449:5; 
458:1; 470:17; 486:15; 
491:25; 504:2; 506:3; 
507:11; 509:7; 519:15; 
530:9; 537:3; 568:11; 
580:19; 581:22; 587:11; 
590:18; 597:15; 600:4; 
606:2,4,6, 7; 608:15 
surely 569:20; 571:16 
surface 497:12 
surprised 462:4; 464:11; 
484:7 

surround 444:8,10,21 
surrounding 495:2; 

555:16 

suspect 414:19 
sustain 446:4; 503:17; 
537:20, 21; 549:14 
Sustained 430:6; 437:23; 
453:25; 455:2; 462:9; 
464:10; 486:23; 487:25; 
491:10, 16; 492:15; 
495:16; 502:20, 23; 504:5; 
509:12; 513:5; 518:5; 
519:17,23; 522:8; 523:10, 
20; 524:13, 19; 525:16; 
527:6; 532:8,13,25; 
533:5; 538:22; 539:17; 
541:18; 545:2, 2, 8, 20; 
548:22; 567:16; 594:18; 
595:10; 596:17; 600:5, 5 
sustaining 452:20 
swallows 574:20 
sworn 417:2; 551:6 
system 413:5; 417:17; 
418:19; 436:22; 438:15, 
16, 18; 447:3, 4, 6, 14; 
449:9,10,19, 23; 450:2, 5, 
13,14, 21;451:8,11, 13, 
16,21:468:19, 22,25; 
471:20; 472:22; 474:2; 
505:1, 23; 506:5, 10; 



513:7, 9, 10; 514:17; 
519:1; 522:1; 523:13; 
524:15; 531:5; 532:4,7; 
533:3; 543:19; 553:12, 16; 
571:8, 17, 18; 572:4; 
574:6; 586:10, 20 

systems 438:21, 23; 
446:14; 449:4, 6, 11; 
450:10,10, 12, 12; 469:20; 
470:14, 14; 492:21, 22; 
514:19; 521:22; 571:4,24; 
572:24; 586:16 



table 415:21; 501:14 
talk 414:12; 419:20; 
421:25; 432:11; 467:22; 
477:15; 483:11; 531:19; 
605:8, 13; 607:19 
talked 436:14; 450:8; 
468:25; 478:11; 485:9; 
493:25; 559:6; 581:5,8 
talking 416:1; 433:2; 
439:10; 442:10; 444:20, 
21, 21, 24;457:15; 477:25; 
515:18; 534:7; 540:12,13; 
549:7; 562:20; 565:5,19, 

20, 20; 571:19; 601:2 
talks 530:11,12,12,14; 
540:19 

tangentially 450:20 

tape 576:24 

task 588:7 

Taz 468:15 

teach 554:24; 592:3 

teaching 551:17 

team 429:13; 552:25 

technical 423:7; 478:1; 

496:2; 504:14; 514:6, 12, 

17; 515:3, 13, 23; 516:25; 

518:10, 17; 521:17; 

534:12,17 

technological 423:13; 
499:8, 9; 540:1 
technologies 480:3; 
492:17; 500:23 
technologist 490:25 
technology 426:10; 
436:2; 478:13, 14,15, 16, 
18, 19; 479:22; 480:11, 14, 
15; 491:5, 18; 494:18, 20, 

21, 24; 495:2, 5, 18; 496:3, 
5, 7; 497:14, 15, 22; 498:2, 
15,22; 501:6; 505:20; 
507:13; 521:7; 555:19; 
572:5 

television 441:25; 442:1; 
472:7; 555:4; 557:19, 19; 
563:20, 24; 564:2, 15; 
568:6, 7 

telling 483:19 

ten 533:8; 582:1; 587:7; 

608:6 

tend 565:1, 8; 566:13 
term 420:16, 24; 448:9; 



539:7 

terms 413:11; 423:11; 
448:24; 482:9, 14; 512:17; 
539:13; 554:6 
test 429:21; 430:2, 4, 7, 
11,15,17,21 
testified 417:2; 428:17, 
24; 473:25; 474:3; 506:4; 
535:17; 551:6; 553:22, 23; 
579:19; 580:12,22; 
588:25; 591:21; 594:12, 
24; 597:22; 601:1, 5 
testifies 466:12 
testify 429:10; 503:9, 22; 
546:5; 556:13; 559:5; 
561:7,13; 574:24; 575:12; 
582:24; 583:19; 588:9; 
589:21; 591:24; 601:19; 
602:5; 606:24 

testifying 417:15; 
458:21; 466:17; 559:6; 
578:11, 15, 18, 24; 586:22; 
587:13; 602:1 
testimony 4 17:8; 442:25; 
445:8; 446:17; 474:17; 
487:14; 519:11, 13, 16; 
533:1; 559:8, 18; 560:5,7; 
561:4,7; 579:20; 580:1, 
15; 581:8, 16, 18; 582:12; 
583:14; 585:11; 588:21, 
24; 589:6, 9, 12; 590:19; 
594:15; 597:1; 599:16; 
604:3; 608:16 
theater 557:17; 564:6, 9; 
566:22 

theaters 564:12; 568:2; 
569:8 

theatrical 565:4 

theory 459:2; 546:8; 
553:15; 554:23 
thereby 482:25 
Therefore 450:5; 480:3; 
566:9; 572:10; 575:15; 
583:15; 597:7 
therein 466:9 
thereupon 581:17 
thinking 422:6; 464:4; 
473:17; 475:9; 581:22 
third 425:11;442:7; 
478:11, 25; 515:10; 
526:10; 592:5 
thirdly 534:17 
though 489:20; 519:4; 
536:22; 600:13, 21 
thought 413:12; 434:6; 
439:3; 445:22; 469:19; 
475:8; 479:24, 25; 480:1; 
518:19; 526:12; 542:20; 
548:7; 570:14; 578:14; 
581:15; 584:7; 587:20,21, 
25:588:6, 15, 15; 597:3; 
599:5 

thousands 419:22 
threat 424:2; 430:1; 
458:13; 496:17, 20 
threatened 424:1; 
448:22,23 



three 477:14, 19; 481:9; 
484:2; 587:14,18,18; 
588:18; 590:10,22; 
598:11; 599:20; 606:12 
three-pronged 478:12; 
479:4,21 

throughout 431:17 
thumbs 451:24 
Thursday 607:15 
thus 545:21; 578:8; 
597:17 

ticket 566:22, 24 
timed 557:21; 566:15 
times 516:13; 566:17; 
567:5; 585:14 
timing 480:17; 567:22 
tire 583:20, 23; 584:17, 
22; 585:1 
title 498: 11 
titles 420:21 
today 422:14; 428:15; 
442:12, 14:443:1,4; 
452:3; 513:12, 21; 554:18; 
561:5; 578:5, 9; 593:20; 
597:1,22; 599:21; 604:5 
today's 447:20,21 
together 433:2, 5; 465 4; 
477:15; 597:23 
told 425:8, 25; 426:25; 
431:6; 437:25; 444:5, 14; 
461:15; 466:19; 514:23, 
25; 516:12; 525:1; 527:8, 
15; 534:15; 545:21; 546:5, 
9; 575:1; 578:13, 20; 
579:3; 581:23; 589:18; 
593:18; 597:16,18, 20; 
603:5; 606:12; 607:4, 7, 9 
Tom 486:7 
tomorrow 447.22: 
606:13,16,17; 607:2,4,8, 
10, 12, 25; 608:11, 16,20; 
609:16, 20 
tonight 608:23 
took 416:18; 433:3; 
479:5; 489:24; 493:9; 
512:3; 530:13; 548:8; 
569:25; 599:13, 20 
tools 554:20 

top 419:16; 431:5; 
460:12; 494:11; 496:14; 
528:23; 560:15; 591:17 
topic 426:3; 471:23,25 
Toshiba 449:13;451:22; 
476:6; 493:1 5; 502:13,16; 
504:11; 506:25; 508:2; 
509:5, 23; 548:25 
total 447:25; 587:14; 
598: j 2; 5*. :2u 
totally 459:25; 500:10, 
19; 532:22; 579:20, 23; 
591:19 

Tower 445:3; 486:4; 
487:23; 488: 10, 12 
track 438:22; 512:12 
tracked 589:9 
trade 451:18 



trademark 432:9 
tradeoff 565:25 
trafficked 423:18 

transcript 534:6,11,16; 
562:2; 569:25 
transfer 508:8,15,17,18 
transferred 508:3, 5 
transformer 489:25 
transmission 449:11; 
450:22, 23; 478:14; 
492:25; 493:7; 496:3, 8; 
498:2, 15; 555:24; 556:6 
transmissions 556:4 
transmit 493:10; 546:2, 
24; 547:23, 25 
transmitted 427:18; 
451:1; 493:23; 495:7; 
555:23; 596:10 
travel 599:9 
tremendous 419:8; 
421:5, 24; 450:19; 451:2, 
25 

tremendously 420:4; 
484:7 

tri-industry 480:7 
trial 414:14; 474:21: 
488:3; 520:17; 536:17; 
546:7; 594:14: 604:7; 
607: 12; 609:1 
trials 546:12 
tried 497:9; 506:20; 584:8 
true 453:5; 463:14: 
498:21: 519:3; 520:5; 
529:12; 566:23; 570:14; 
572:14; 573:5, 10,22, 23; 
577:8; 588:15; 597:5, 9, 10 
truth 466:9; 530:1 
truthful 584:5 
try 430:11; 468:3, 4; 
474:25; 494:14; 497:8; 
512:18; 535:4; 567:6; 
584:19; 596:25; 597:4 
trying 413:19;414:10, 
14;424:7;433:11;434:17; 
444:11;455:9; 467:16; 
469:10; 472:2; 483:24; 
489:13; 498:19; 535:21; 
536:10; 539:3; 540:24; 
541:9,19; 584:22 
turn 416:9, 15; 420:24; 
564:1; 570:3 

turned 416:18, 22; 417:4, 
5; 450:25; 495:21; 51 1:14, 
15,16; 520:15; 580:23 
turning 416:4; 543:23; 
572:22 
TV 420:7, 14 
twice 464:9; 589:4, 18 
two 414:8; 415:12, 17; 
437:25; 447:25; 448:3; 
470:8, 10; 481:9; 483:10; 
484:8; 492:16, 17; 493:2; 
516:18; 521:22; 525:1; 
535:15; 538:4; 54 1:6; 
574:20; 577:19; 580:9, 20; 
596:14; 599:8, 20,21; 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



Min-U-Script® 



(17) successfully - two 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 

SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



605:18, 20, 25; 607:16 
type 420:10; 450:5; 
458:13; 471:10; 477:10; 
500:3 

types 438:22 
typically 572:2 

U 

U.S413:10;417:23; 
531:10; 534:21 

ultimate 488:9; 500:5 
ultimately 465:25 
unauthorized 487:3; 
536:15; 543:2, 3; 558:22; 
562:12; 565:12; 569:11; 
570:1, 16, 21; 576:14 
uncertainty 578:14 
uncontroversial 4139 
uncrackable 448:14 
und 520:14 
under 417:10; 428:4; 
455:24;471:3; 474:9; 
484:23: 500:19; 521:3; 
524:7; 531:9; 534:8; 
539:14; 552:16; 557:24; 
572:19; 583:19 
understands 487:17 
understood 472:21; 
575:17 

unemployment 553:10 
Unfortunately 592:11, 
13 

unified 433:3 
United 418:1; 426:25; 
442:4;452:13;453:4; 
476:3; 480:25; 489:12,23, 
24; 538:15; 547:19; 
585:23 

universities 600:22 
University 574:16; 
593:14 

unless 419:25;421:9; 
474:2; 488:6; 500:1; 
512:14; 527:15; 573:13; 
607:1 

unlicensed 558:2, 17; 
562:21; 563:18; 564:19; 
574:7 

unlike 448:1; 476:23 
unlock 478:22; 479:1 
unnecessarily 414:15; 
545:5 

unnecessary 433:17; 
545:23 

unprecedented 477:14 
unrelated 591:20 
Unscrambles 516:3 
unsensational 461 :22 
unsophisticated 
522:10; 523:4 
unto 60915 
untold 419:21 
unusual 537:4; 567:3 



unwatchable 565:18 

up 416:20; 423:16; 428:7; 
448:19; 450:20; 451:2; 
455:9; 467:21; 468:3; 
471:6; 472:2; 475:4; 
478:1,12, 23; 479:1, 4; 
485:22; 493:16, 22; 
495:24; 512:18; 517:1, 3; 
531:19:533:7; 535:9; 
551:11; 574:13; 578:9; 
580:25; 585:17; 599:12; 
602:7 

upgrade 493:5; 506:19; 
543:19 

upheld 420:2 

upon 449:24; 503:22; 

562:6; 583:15 

use 429:22; 437: 10; 

438:12, 23: 450:4; 478:14, 

17; 486:10; 488:23; 

489:15;503:5,8; 505:1; 

522:2; 527:10; 541:16; 

542:7; 546:2, 22; 547:19, 

23; 552:19; 570:23; 

600:19; 601:5 

used4l4:25;426:l; 

434:1; 435:22; 440:25; 

444:3; 447:1 5; 454:3; 

481:8; 499:10; 521:22; 

546:14, 24; 555:19; 565:1; 

571:17, 18 

useful 512:2 

useless 456:22; 457:3, 7, 

11; 506:5; 522:1 

user 438:18 

users 437:16, 19, 24; 

438:9, 11, 11, 14,21; 

571:9,19, 20 

uses 539:2, 5; 564:1; 

567:24 

using 419:1; 438:2, 10; 
478:18; 479:3; 554:14; 
568:14; 571:8 
usual 525:21; 584:20 
utilities 512:22, 24 
utility 414:25; 566:8 
utilized 521:19 



V 413:10; 500:12,12,14; 
580:14, 14, 21; 581:10 
Valenti 456:21; 457:2, 4, 
10,14 

valid 423:23; 458:20 

valuable 421:1; 563:25; 
565:3,4 

value 420:20, 25; 567:24 
values 500:12 
variable 453:22 

various 475:21; 492:21; 
553:13, 14; 554:7, 10; 
555:12, 15; 557:10, 16; 
568:4 

VCD 439:20 
Vegas 548:18 



verified 416:10 
version 459:21 
versus 440:11 
VHS 439:20 
via 567:21; 568:10 
viability 547:18 
vice 461:12 
vice-president 497:22 
video 420:7, 11, 14; 
421:4, 18, 22; 440:6, 11, 
13, 14, 17,21;441:1,4,9, 
14, 21, 24; 444:6, 8, 10, 
17; 461:13; 464:22; 468:6; 
472:3, 7; 486:18, 19,21; 
520:20; 522:11; 525:5; 
528:19; 547:16 
video-on-demand 420:6 

videos 439:17, 25; 
441:18; 445:23; 471:21; 
601:3 

videotape 564:14 
videotapes 557:18; 
563:10, 13; 564:18 
view 448:6; 474:21; 
475:12;530:19; 538:18; 
544:7, 12, 21; 545:10; 
547:1,2, 8; 548:2; 554:1 1; 
571:24,25; 581:1; 604:13, 
17 

viewership 569:20; 
571:23,24 

violate 423:16; 454:18 
violated 423:18 
violates 482:19 
violation 423:17 
Visa 602:4 
visible 566:25 
visits 436:3 
vote 537:9 
vulnerable 450:5 

W 

wait 416:7; 460:13; 492:5; 
564:22,22,22, 24,25 
waiting 564:13; 565:2 
waived 459:17 

waiver 455:24; 456:5; 
459:18 

walking 540:7 
wall 489:25 
Walmart 602:1,4 
wants 452:12, 22; 469:7, 
8, 10:490:19; 573:13; 
609:3,9 
war 498:23 
warn 609:17 

Warner 418:21; 419:19, 
24: 420:4; 421:8, 18; 
429:25; 430:11; 431:7; 
435:1 1; 437:1 5; 439:24; 
440:5:454:8,12,17,22; 
460:24; 461:1, 3, 5, 7,13, 
24; 462:3, 6, 10,21,23; 



463:18, 25; 464:22; 466:4; 
468:6; 471:5, 15; 472:4; 
474:1; 479:25; 480:17; 
486:4, 5,14,16, 24; 487:2, 
17, 18, 21; 488:9, 10,21; 
489:3,10, 14; 490:10; 
492:9, 10, 12, 18; 495:22; 
496:13; 497:13, 23; 498:1, 
14; 506:15; 507:10, 14, 16, 
17; 508:20, 21; 509:2, 15, 
17, 19:510:16,17, 19, 20, 
22, 22; 512:21; 513:6; 
516:14; 517:25; 519:18; 
520:20; 522:10; 525:4, 19; 
527:16; 528:18; 529:9; 
531:4; 536:1, 6, 8; 537:12; 
538:17; 541:20; 546:2,22; 
547:16; 548:19; 549:2 

Warner's 429:20; 430:3, 
16; 441:21; 536:3; 537:14; 
541:14; 543:1; 545:3, 10, 
17; 547:23 
Warren 464:20 
Washington 431:14, 15; 
607:19 

watch 430:25; 438: 16; 
543:3; 564:7,10; 567:25; 
569:15,18,22,23; 570:25; 
571:1; 572:6, 11,12; 576:4 

watched 569:19 
watching 438:2; 597:13 
water 446:12; 447:5; 
449:7, 8, 10; 450:13; 
451:7, 7, 9; 478:13; 493:1, 
4; 552:1, 3 

way 414:8; 420:9; 423:4; 
428:1, 9; 436:18; 437:2; 
438:14; 445:22; 446:16; 
448:9, 18; 450:8; 451:22; 
462:21; 463:14; 464:4; 
466:11; 474:5; 477:13, 15; 
478:16; 488:2, 5; 490:16; 
491:17; 503:17; 506:8; 
535:9; 540:7;553:11,11, 
11, 12; 559:21; 562:20; 
563:3; 566:9; 568:3; 
569:6; 581:14; 582:5; 
585:4,22; 588:11,12; 
590:6; 591:2; 596:13; 
600:9; 603:1 
ways 453:22; 557:10; 
562:19; 570:19; 583:6 
WB01462 521:3 
WB01637 525:17 
weak 514:21; 522:1; 
532:4 

weakness 514:17, 20; 

522:17 

web 413:6 

week 415:6; 417:5; 494:3; 
513:13; 587:7,7 
weight 556:21 
Weiss 461:2 
welcome 448:19; 549:18 
weren't 415:22; 426:5, 7; 
462:4; 471: 16; 493:9; 
588:4, 5 

Westlaw 604:9 



wet 459:23 

what's 413:5, 5, 5;4l6:9; 

418:8; 422:5, 13; 434:4; 

459:18; 469:18; 473:24; 

479:13, 16; 481:21; 

486:19; 496:19; 498: 18; 

513:3; 531:1; 541:12; 

549:7; 605:7; 608:21 

whatsoever 469:6 

whenever 414:6; 606:16 

whereas 577:10 

who's 439:13; 534:5 

whole4l5:ll;4l6:15; 

427:3; 459:13; 466:24; 

475:13; 501:1, 21; 520:14; 

534:9; 537:24; 556:17; 

580:15; 592:24 

whomever 488:10, 12 
| whose 485:1 
| widely 419:15; 472:8: 
I 556:4 

j widespread 563:18; 
| 568:18; 572:8 

wife 600:18 

William 551:15 

Williams 461:4 

willing 418:21; 420:9; 

564:3; 567:7,9 

willingness 566:18; 

576:23, 25 

win 448:20 

Wind 421:1; 567:2 

window 420:13; 472:2, 9; 
479:2 

Windows 438:15, 15, 18, 
21; 557:16, 20; 563:17, 17; 
572:10; 573:15,21; 
597:13 

wish 557:13:584:5 
withdraw 512:6; 596:1 
withdrawn 438:19; 
602:9; 603:9 
withheld 563:6 
withholding 606:8 
within 417:5; 439:24; 
440:16; 448:3; 459:14; 
478:10; 494:8; 525:10; 
531:4; 533:2; 553:14; 
576:11; 600:22 
without 453:23; 454:13; 
456:7; 459:16; 482:9, 11; 
483:14; 491:4; 499:3; 
506:23; 511:19; 529:20; 
536:2; 537:13; 540:19; 
542:17:558:18; 564:16; 
572:11 

witness 413:1; 414:9; 
417:1;418:15;419:20; 

423:7; 424:4, 15; 427:8, 
14; 441:2; 443:3, 6; 
444:16, 23; 448:22; 453:2; 
456:18;457:1;458:12,21; 
463:24; 464:4; 466:8, 12; 
467:1,4,8:471:16; 
473:19, 25; 474:17; 
479:10, 14; 480:22; 



type - witness (18) 



Min-U-Scrit>t® 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS. RC. 



UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., et al v. 
SHAWN C. REIMERDES, et al 



Trial Volume 3 
July 19, 2000 



483:21; 484:4: 485:5; 
487:10; 488:1; 492:5; 
493:21; 494:6; 496:12; 
501:11; 502:2; 503:9,14, 
19,21,23; 504:4; 508:16; 
513:25; 514:11; 515:16, 
17, 25; 516:9, 15, 17,20; 
518:22; 520:14; 524:22; 
527:14; 528:1 1,14; 529:7; 
535:17, 22; 537:2; 538:2, 
2; 542:1, 6; 543:16; 
545:21; 546:11; 550:19, 
21,22, 23; 551:2, 5,8, 10; 
553:25; 556:12, 15; 559:4, 
11, 17; 561:6; 574:22; 
575:9, 15, 21; 576:1; 
581:10; 583:17,25; 
584:14; 585:5,7; 591:12; 
604:24; 605:3, 6, 9,17, 24; 
607:16,17,17 
witnesses 425:18; 
467:16, 21; 501:15; 
507:20; 546:8; 559:25; 
608:6, 6, 7, 8 
wonderful 583 24 
word 428:1; 439:18; 
450:12, 14; 471:19; 539:1, 
2,20; 570:7; 573:19; 
586:5,6 

words 424:4; 440:25; 
444:8; 463:4, 9; 480:11; 
485:9; 489:10; 523:16; 
530:1; 536:10, 13; 556:16; 
566:23; 574:21; 575:12 

Work4l5:9;421:19; 
431:12,455:19,22; 
457:23; 468:9; 487:11; 
493:18; 497:4: 499:11; 
505:1; 506:18; 534:11; 
554:16; 565:8; 579:1,11; 
582:3; 608:12 
worked 481:2; 553:14; 
576:2; 598:11 
working 449:9, 10; 
451:6; 468:8; 470:4; 
471:15; 477:24; 478:2; 
480:15; 493:3; 494:3, 13, 
24; 498:6; 504:14; 514:6, 
---12, 17; 515:3, 13, 23; 
516:25; 518:10, 17; 
521:18; 527:9; 552:3; 
553:18; 607:18 
works 418:20; 448:8; 
450:22; 495:22; 553:12, 
16; 590:13 

world 418:2; 419:15; 
431:17, 19; 487:24; 
511:12 

world's 583:18; 585:8 
worldwide 413:6 
worse 436:11 
worth 422:8, 9:466:25; 
529:14 

write 573:19 
writing 414:7; 588:1 

written 415:7: 554:23; 
555:2; 573:1 5, 20; 574:5; 
589:7; 593:25; 594:1,3, 8; 



595:6,13; 596:3 
wrong 434:4; 444:14; 
476:8; 491:18; 496:1; 
506:24; 508:10; 510:15; 
550:11; 573:23; 598:16 

wronger 578:20 



Y 



year 417:24; 419:14; 
427:17; 439:8; 442:4, 5,7; 
445:11;454:23; 463:15; 
468:10; 486:2; 494:4, 23; 
495:10, 24; 496:8; 497:2; 
500:1; 501:6; 507:2, 3; 
544:7; 545:4; 552:15; 
554:24; 578:1 1,17, 22; 
579:10; 582:15,18; 
585:25 

years 428: 11; 447:25; 
448:3; 481:10; 495:22; 
551:18; 552:1; 553:24; 
555:1; 578:25; 582:4,21, 
22; 583:10, 11; 589:13; 
592:2 

yesterday 414:18, 21; 
416:4;417:15; 430:12; 
447:9; 520:10, 13; 522:21; 
535:3; 609:22 
yesterday's 4 14:1 6 
York 431:13; 489:3, 4 

Young 534:1, 3; 575:24; 
607:18 



Z 



Z 455:14 
Zealand 461:13 
zebra 455:14 

zero 562:25; 563:1,11; 
566:11; 577:20, 22; 597:5 
ZM 455:13, 14, 16 
Zwilling 525:18 



SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 



Min-U-Script® 



(19) 



witnesses - Zwilling 



Lawyer's Notes